Endpin Alternative?

[robobass]

With all the discussion about endpin materials and angled pins going on lately, I'm wondering if anyone has tried doing away with them altogether. I'm envisioning some sort of small stand which you set your bass on instead of using the peg. This could give you the offset center of gravity of the Eggpin or Labourie, but without the associated complications, and also eliminate bouncing. To work properly I suppose it would need to be able to rock a bit and have height adjustability, so would be a tricky design challenge. Has anyone done this?

[GerardSamija]

There are a few light weight stands available now, made of aluminum or steel tubing. I recently modified a pair made from square steel tubing for a client with back troubles, who wanted his work and home basses both at the same height for practice. That type (sorry, don't recall the brand name) was not height adjustable. I had to do some sawing and grinding to get the rest bars down to the right height and then drill new holes for the fixing bolts. With the foam sleeves pushed back on, you'd never know they were modified. But that was taking only a couple of inches of height off, couldn't do much more, and going up wouldn't be possible.

I've got an Ingles bass stand which is fully height adjustable. Kind of bulky though, and no flexibility insofar as moving the bass a little while playing. You'd have to be comfortable with an absolutely stationary bass to use something like this.

My main concerns would be around sound. A stand prevents at least some vibration by definition, securing parts which would otherwise be in motion. If one were to use a stand-like device which secured to the lower end of the bass in the area of the end block alone (on average ending about 3" either side of the endpin hole) then this may not be much of an issue, as that area doesn't move a lot anyway (ducks head in case Chuck Traeger gets wind of this comment). But I fail to see any advantage in going to rubber pads or points with such a device as compared to either a conventional endpin or an offset type. The latter, the rear-ward offset endpins, offer a distinct advantage in terms of balancing the instrument to take weight off the player's left hand, freeing it up for making music to some degree. A properly made offset endpin - not too flimsy, but not overly heavy either - shouldn't bounce much, if at all. I know some of those which have been marketed do bounce a bit... I'm working with my favourite machine shop towards something which should be incredibly light while also offering near infinite adjustability and great stability in terms of bounce/wobble. We'll just have to wait and see how that eventually turns out.

[Mike Goodbar]

I suppose you could go in the complete opposite direction and rig some kind of a winch that would allow the bass to hang from its scroll in front of you at the proper height (though angle might be a problem). This would disallow the dampening caused by an endpin or stand and while giving complete freedom to the bassist.








Hey, the guy asked for alternatives. Just throwing it out there.

[drurb]

You could also attach helium balloons to the scroll.

[Eric Swanson]

I have done the most informal and haphazard monkeying around with the concept of putting the bass' bottom on various ghettoesque stands etc. All I can report is that losing the endpin's mass (whatever that is for each bass, for the desired sound) is not necessarily a helpful thing, it would seem; rather it appears that putting a bass on a stand sort of kills the bottom end's fullness, at least on the two basses I tinkered with...

[GerardSamija]

According to Traeger's writing on the subject, restricting scroll movement is almost as bad as not having a wooden endpin of exactly the right nature. Hence his recommendation for individual tuners rather than heavier plate tuners, which impede the vibration of the neck/scroll less. It would seem that extending that rationale, hanging by the scroll would be a bad idea. However... in my experience of bassists casually playing a few bars on basses left hanging from my shop ceiling (I use a long 2" x 3" bolted to the ceiling, with various cloth cords or insulated electrical wires attached to eyelets in that for hanging basses and fiddles) that they actually sound louder, not quieter. No quantitative measurements taken, just subjective opinion. Unfortunately it's a rather awkward way to play a bass, as the instrument either hangs straight down, or it tends to want to flop around if not. It's good enough though for players to form quick opinions on whether or not to un-hook the bass to try it more seriously.

[Thumpie]

Uhm, The endpin transmits vibration to the floor, which is important to the "sound" of the double bass. I can't believe this discussion has proceeded this far without anyone bringing up this fact...

[drurb]

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

...in my experience of bassists casually playing a few bars on basses left hanging from my shop ceiling (I use a long 2" x 3" bolted to the ceiling, with various cloth cords or insulated electrical wires attached to eyelets in that for hanging basses and fiddles) that they actually sound louder, not quieter.

If the bass is hanging, doesn't that mean the neck block is supporting the weight of the bass in addition to resisting the force of the strings? That works out okay?

Your post seems to lend support to my helium balloon idea.

[GerardSamija]

The strings are pulling the neck slightly forward (hence warped necks when carved too thin, or soft maple fingerboards in place, action WAY too high, etc.) and also compressing the neck. Consider the angle of the strings related to the neck. It's rather a shallow angle. Then think about the direction of force being contributed by hanging. It's effectively pulling the neck in the direction opposite the string force, the compressive force pulling the neck into the bass body, thus countering that force. I hang basses by the upper tuners, not the scroll, so the hanging is actually quite far behind the line of the strings. This should slightly pull backwards as well, countering the neck-warping force of the strings. Seems to me it's all good if you want to use helium balloons... but first, check out MythBusters on the subject of lifting pretty much exactly the same weight as an average bass:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/myth...loon-girl.html

You may need to book only REALLY HUGE theatres, or perhaps airplane hangers, if you really want to float that big boy.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

There are a few light weight stands available now...


My main concerns would be around sound. A stand prevents at least some vibration by definition, securing parts which would otherwise be in motion. If one were to use a stand-like device which secured to the lower end of the bass in the area of the end block alone (on average ending about 3" either side of the endpin hole) then this may not be much of an issue...

The latter, the rear-ward offset endpins, offer a distinct advantage in terms of balancing the instrument to take weight off the player's left hand, freeing it up for making music to some degree. A properly made offset endpin - not too flimsy, but not overly heavy either - shouldn't bounce much, if at all. I know some of those which have been marketed do bounce a bit... I'm working with my favourite machine shop towards something which should be incredibly light while also offering near infinite adjustability and great stability in terms of bounce/wobble. We'll just have to wait and see how that eventually turns out.

Yes, I think all existing stands I know of wouldn't be very practical for an orchestra player, especially if you sit inside and need to get up and turn pages. Not to mention that you need height adjustability as an orchestra player unless you always travel with your own stool. Also as you said, you don't want contact with the ribs and back except within or at least close to the botton block area. I'm working on a design with a small shelf on a swivel mount which would satisfy these parameters, but I think you might be right that a good offset endpin design is the way to go.

My beef with the popular socket-mounted offset pin is partly that it looks really heavy and industrial, but mainly that it certainly puts unhealthy stress on the socket and bottom block, and even if the bass can take it, it looks like it would turn your block into a leaf spring. This could be corrected by adding a bumper between the rear projecting strut and the bottom of the bass near the back, which would remove the bending moment on the socket.

As far as the big bottom you get from a conventional pin on a hardwood floor, I'm all for it, but it doesn't work in many situations. If the wood lies right on a concrete slab for example, or if you aren't permitted use your point, and must stick on a rubber tip, then the effect won't happen.

Gerard, good luck with your offset design, I can't wait to see it!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

The strings are pulling the neck slightly forward (hence warped necks when carved too thin, or soft maple fingerboards in place, action WAY too high, etc.) and also compressing the neck. Consider the angle of the strings related to the neck. It's rather a shallow angle. Then think about the direction of force being contributed by hanging. It's effectively pulling the neck in the direction opposite the string force, the compressive force pulling the neck into the bass body, thus countering that force. I hang basses by the upper tuners, not the scroll, so the hanging is actually quite far behind the line of the strings. This should slightly pull backwards as well, countering the neck-warping force of the strings. Seems to me it's all good if you want to use helium balloons... but first, check out MythBusters on the subject of lifting pretty much exactly the same weight as an average bass:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/myth...loon-girl.html

You may need to book only REALLY HUGE theatres, or perhaps airplane hangers, if you really want to float that big boy.

Thanks for your typical thoughtful, informed answer regarding the neck. As for the balloons, consider this. It has been done! In any case, I considered cost and space to be no object!

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by drurb

You could also attach helium balloons to the scroll.

Twice as much lift from hydrogen. Just sayin'.

[thelostuba]

Dude, just make a shoe with i nice platform-ish tumor out of rubber or something off the toe and stick your foot beneath the sombitch!

[Eric Swanson]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Twice as much lift from hydrogen. Just sayin'.

One word: Hindenburg

[Nagrom]

Short rope from a tall ceiling