Engelhardt EG-9 Swingmaster bass - good for classical?

[InfinityJaco]

I found one of these Engelhardt EG-9 Swingmaster basses on Craigslist for a killer deal. The pics are really good and it's in like new shape and has a lot of accessories (including a K&K Sound Double Big Twin bass pickup and preamp - is this a good pickup for recording or playing thru an amp?)...

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product...EG_9_BASS.html

My question is - Can this bass be used for classical? I'm not really a swing player and don't intend to play it in a swing band (although I may play some jazz with it). What makes it a "swing" bass rather than a "classical" bass? Or is it just the looks?

[Ed Fuqua]

You're just messing with me, right? Cause you know I'm a little weary and cranky...

You can play any kind of music on anything. If you really don't know anything about uprights, buying a bass off Craigslist may not be the best idea for you, unless you can take someone along who DOES know about basses.
It's a plywood bass, and most orchestras' (including semi pro outfits) bassists are using carved instruments, not plywoods. If yer playing with a small regional concert band, neighborhood orchestra (retired doctors, band teachers, the occasional precocious and talented high school player) maybe you'll see plywoods. But mostly not.

As far as it being called a Swingmaster and "...I'm not really a swing player and don't intend to play it in a swing band..." if asked you about buying a Fender Jazz bass even though "I'm not really a jazz player and don't intend to play jazz with it" you'd point and stare, right? They don't move the notes around if you intend to play jazz and not swing (and sorry, I do get the feeling that if you play jazz, it won't swing).

Recording through a pick up is something I try to avoid at all costs, I play an acoustic instrument. It's sound should be recorded the same way my voice is, not by capturing the way a piezo reacts to changes in pressure between two pieces of wood.

What does make the difference between a "classical" and a "jazz" bass? Not much really. Most jazz players are looking for an instrument that has the best (subjective, you try to match to your internal model of what you hear in your head) balance of what Stan Getz called the "ping" and "ring" - a nice front edge to the attack and projection of the fundamental AND a warm blossom of the overtones, sustain. The fat followup to the edge of the attack.

I haven't spoken with a lot of legit players, but (depending on their career track) there does seem to be a tendency to look for a bass voice that has some singing/vocal qualities (cantabile) under the bow as well as an ability to meld well with the section. Sometimes these basses (to my ear) can seem either brighter or darker (and more muffled) when played pizz.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

You're just messing with me, right? Cause you know I'm a little weary and cranky...

Mus' be catching.
DURRL's calling me "YOUR ORNERY" now.

[Ed Fuqua]

Humidity's kicking my ass, dog. I do not know HOW I ever made it through a Georgia summer (for those of you who aren't familiar with Georgia weather, Georgia has two seasons - summer and January 14th.)

[fdeck]

I played classical music on a plywood bass.

Ed's words cut pretty close to home for me: If yer playing with a small regional concert band, neighborhood orchestra (retired doctors, band teachers, the occasional precocious and talented high school player) maybe you'll see plywoods. A plywood bass got me through lessons, and into the orchestra at a university that didn't have a big league music program. I'm glad that I had that bass, as it got me playing.

In my view, there's not really a separate classification for a "swing" bass, though there is an affinity for the tone of classic American plywood basses such as Kay and King, within genres such as rockabilly and bluegrass.

But having recently shopped for a slightly nicer bass, I was faced with deciding between a bass for jazz or for classical. After playing a lot of basses, I developed the impression that there is a wide swath of basses that would be equally at home playing jazz or classical music. Two guys could play the same bass and reach opposite conclusions about which genre it is suited for.

Where I think basses diverge is at the two ends of the price spectrum, i.e., a jazz player could play a decent ply or hybrid, especially amplified, whereas they would probably not spend the money for a bass that could hold its own in a world class symphony orchestra unless they really wanted to splurge, or got really lucky.

[crowsmengegus]

What, you don't like the spiderman bass?

Please ignore the grumpy old men. Well, actually, I guess I agree: if you want to play classical on a swingmaster, go for it. I played an Engelhardt in a community orchestra once upon a time and it worked fine. Some nice arco strings and it'll sound good as any other bass under a beginner's bow.

If you are buying something on craigslist, be aware that it may need a setup and/or strings, which will amount to several hundred additional $$$. It may not be such deal if you factor that in.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

Please ignore the grumpy old men.

Sure, why not? It's no skin off my nose...

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Sure, why not? It's no skin off my nose...

[PRUNEFACE]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

(and sorry, I do get the feeling that if you play jazz, it won't swing).

Ouch.

[eerbrev]

Interestingly enough, I like playing baroque music on plywood basses. They tend to have a bowed sound under the ear that has the depth of tone from a bass, but the upper-mid "nasality" (such a nasty word) that violones and viola da gambas can have. I thought this was really cool when i first found it, but I can be a hardcore music nerd.

aside from that though, I do agree that for a jazz or classical program, you're going to want to look into solid wood. Some german factory basses from the early to mid 20th century can be pretty pimp, and there's some amazing makers in the states pumping out good stuff (Upton and AES being notable, though not the only examples). all these options, while they might take you a summer of saving cash, are relatively easy on the wallet in comparison to some solid woods like those by one man operations (Kai Arvi for example). If you save up some scratch, say, three grand, you can get some nice stuff. You're already looking at 1500 for an instrument that's not really suited to future needs, where as if you save up more (or possibly installments? idunno how the aforementioned companies do that sort of thing), you can have an instrument that will last you likely through your undergrad.

good luck with your decision,

Alex

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by eerbrev

.... you can have an instrument that will last you likely through your undergrad.

I'm pretty sure Jaco's already an established professional (composer if I remember correctly), just wanting to get into DB.

[fdeck]

I suspect that to crack this nut, we may simply have to find out what the OP means by "swing" as opposed to "jazz." This may simply be a matter of terminology.

[eerbrev]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

I'm pretty sure Jaco's already an established professional (composer if I remember correctly), just wanting to get into DB.

Forgive me, My bad. I should have read his profile. Apologies, Jaco!

Alex

[curbucci]

Are the Engelhardts that much of a dud? I have had no luck in my area on trying one out thus far. I am planning on making my first ply upright bass purchase in the next following months and the Engelhardt Supreme model is one of the models that is under consideration. I have researched and found a reputable out of state dealer who can ship one out that has a set up and upgrades done to it. I will playing it in a avant- garde setting with the intention of 90% pizz 10 arco.
My maximum budget for the purchase is $2000 (pushing it).
The basses available in my area from reputable dealers that I plan to try out are the Eastman model 85 and a Shen SB80 with a setup with standard parts.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by curbucci

The basses available in my area from reputable dealers that I plan to try out are the Eastman model 85 and a Shen SB80 with a setup with standard parts.

I would prefer a Shen SB80 to an Englehart. Don't know the Eastman. My student's Shen SB80 is a very nice entry level bass and sounds and plays better than that for jazz. The Engleharts I've heard will do the job for jazz, but don't sound that great. Many people seem to like them for Rbilly and bluegrass. Many people complain about the thin neck profile. I think the Shen is a good way to go in that price range.

[InfinityJaco]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

I'm pretty sure Jaco's already an established professional (composer if I remember correctly), just wanting to get into DB.

Yes crows, I am a film composer and electric bassist and finally have some money to afford a DB.

I'm trying to find out as much about DBs and terminology as I can, that's why I asked my question regarding differences in jazz vs. classical basses. I know, (thanks Ed), that a bass can be played in any style, but some people have preferences, as I am also learning about set ups and strings make differences for styles as well.

And, thanks Ed, for the sarcasm:

"(and sorry, I do get the feeling that if you play jazz, it won't swing)."

But I do understand that in jazz, you "swing", but what I was talking about was I am not intending on playing in a swing band, as in, a genre. I can "swing" just fine.

I am intending on playing the new DB in the local community orchestra. And, as my technique and skill increases, recording myself on any tracks that I do for film or commercial music (virtual DBs just don't cut it). I know it will sound better miked for recording, so I guess I meant will that particular pickup (which looks like a Gullihor pickup) sound good for playing through an amp in band situations.

I was recommended by a potential future DB teacher to look in to Shen. I also noticed Upton has some nice looking basses. And I have heard Kay and King are decent too. I was hoping to keep it under $1500, but it also sounds like set ups are pricey! (the one on Craigslist was not set up, so maybe it's not such a good deal).

Thanks for all the responses.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by InfinityJaco

.And, thanks Ed, for the sarcasm:

I exist but to serve.

[AMJBASS]

The K&K Double Big Twin sounds pretty rough with the bow. I would also agree that if you are going to record, don't use the pickup.

Regarding the bass. If you are just starting out on the Double Bass a Plywood is fine, but if you intend to really get into arco you should probably look for a hybrid(carved top) at the least. Take the advice that you see here though and buy from a reputable shop. You won't be sorry. If this information was around when I first started I would have saved thousands of dollars.

[wdnewman]

Jaco,

Ditto on the Shen. Why? They can be resold. I'd advise the hybrid SB150 or SB180. String it with some EP weich strings. Buy it from a seller who does "real" professional setups and get a good bow, rosin and bag.
You got Jazz
You got Swing
You got Classical
You got Bluegrass (if you can stand the boredom)
You got Punk

AND you have a bass that can be resold after a couple of years.
There are other good brands out there.

[ole Jason]

Another nod for the SB150 here. They're nice basses and can cover a lot of ground with a good setup.