Engelhardt EM1

[powellmacaque]

I purchased an Engelhardt EM1 over the summer so I could begin my studies in college as a Jazz Studies student. After reading many negative reviews regarding Engelhardts (along with many positive reviews) I must say that both myself and my teacher are extremely happy with my $1050 purchase. Upon first inspection, my teacher did not believe that I paid $1050 for the bass, and still asks me "if I'm sure I didn't pay $4,000" for it!

My bass did require about 3/16ths of an inch of bridge filing, a slight movement of the sound post, and a change of strings to Supremes, but all I had to pay was $80 for the strings, my teacher set up the rest for me!

The rosewood fingerboard and tailpiece, while many consider it not ideal, actually feels better on my fingers and sounds better to my ears than ebony, as it has a broad and warm tone with a bit of a bite, opposed to an ebony fingerboard's precision and definition. I play German bow, and my tone is developing into a rather aggressive tone, and I think the bass complements that justly. Not to mention it gives my bass a unique aesthetic quality that not many basses have.

I plan on keeping this instrument for a while, and I don't plan on upgrading as I am mostly playing electric bass and I don't think I'll be doing anything orchestral any time soon. Even then, I plan on using my bass, I don't see any reason to upgrade.

A side note: I may be taking cello lessons next year to meet secondary instrument requirements; is Engelhardts' quality pretty standard throughout, or are their cellos' quality lesser than their bass'?

[Bass Barrister]

I played a couple of Engels over the summer that I thought were fairly respectable in that price range. I too found one rather surprising. The setup is critical on these, IMHO. I would personaly draw the line when it comes to serious use of these for classical work but, for now and then gigs in the right venue, it will probably suffice.

For my money, I'd stay away from Engel cellos. There are a lot more cellos available out there than there are basses and one can buy a decent fully carved cello (probably Chinese) for $1,000 to $1,500. I started out on an old Kay beater rental cello (Kay is the predecessor company to Engelhardt) back in 1977 and was so happy when I bought a fully carved used cello for $1,200 several months later. Kay/Engelhardt cellos are best left in high school settings.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

Upon first inspection, my teacher did not believe that I paid $1050 for the bass, and still asks me "if I'm sure I didn't pay $4,000" for it!

IMO, your teacher is ill informed.

[powellmacaque]

Bass Barrister:
Thanks for your information. If I do get a cello, I plan to use it not only for my education, but maybe for my folk rock band (if I get good enough at it). Would I still be better off spending the extra $500 - $1,000 on an instrument that I would gig with?

Mr. Warburton:
What my teacher meant by that was that he would've paid as much for a bass that sounded and played as good as mine. He knew how much I paid for it when I told him what it was.

If you must check my teacher's credentials, look up Nestor Zayas, bassist in the New Dominican National Symphony, Mobile Symphony, Pensacola Symphony, and the Northwest Florida Symphony, and the bass instructor at UWF. He is also a well respected luthier and built his 19th century bass from pieces to be appraised at $10 - $15k, in addition to adding extensions and fingerboard modifications to numerous bassists' instruments in the area.

And, IMO, your "ill informed" comment is the epitome of what is wrong with the double bass section of this website, and is probably why I don't consider myself a double bassist at all. Putting "IMO" as a prefix to your snobbery does not make it any less snobbish my friend. Although you and I share the same birthdate, I'm afraid we don't share a view on proper ways to disagree with one another.

[powellmacaque]

Oh and my mistake: I meant to say my bass was an EM1OF, if that makes a difference.

[DrBassie]

Well, I owned an Engelhardt for a long time and I can say there's no way it was anywhere close to as good as my New Standard Cleveland.

It's your first bass to learn on and it'll definitely do the job for $1k. It is hyperbole to compare it to a bass you could get at around the $4k range unless you got the best bass Engelhardt has ever made.

[Rudreax]

He was just making an observation. No need to let it offend you so much, and no need to group an entire section of people into such a small category. If anyone is being snobbish here, it's you for saying that.

[Bass Barrister]

"Bass Barrister:
Thanks for your information. If I do get a cello, I plan to use it not only for my education, but maybe for my folk rock band (if I get good enough at it). Would I still be better off spending the extra $500 - $1,000 on an instrument that I would gig with?"

My $0.02: Cellos are significantly smaller than basses. Ply instruments are generally far less resonant than carved instruments. To some extent, the size of the ply bass makes up for that lack of resonance - far more so than the cello. Also, since there are far more cellos out there than there are basses, you are much more likely to score a decent carved cello at a decent price. It's about the sound though. Talk to your teacher. As a luthier, he should be able to help you.

If you are really dead set on a ply Engelhardt cello, there's one on Chicago Craigslist right now going for $400 or best offer. Knock yourself out.

[powellmacaque]

Of course I don't believe the entire forum is snobbish, but whenever I post on this forum I tend to get a few snobbish responses per post. Just commenting on my experiences.

I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing my bass to something that is $4k. I have been told that my Fender Jazz, which I paid $800 for, sounded and played better than some custom basses, Rics, and MusicMan basses, so in essence, it is "worth" a lot more than what I paid for it. Just like there are some Squiers that have the build and tonal quality of an American Fender.

And as far as the cellos go, that makes sense. I'll definitely look into spending the extra money for a nice carved instrument.

[MIKMAN]

One thing that amazes me during the last five-six years is the fact that young fellows are easily offended and irritated with anyone who disagrees with them. This attitude leads to an erratic behaviour, usually characterized by arrogance, disrespect, insulting comments etc. Young guys tend to find hybris when they should have found just a different opinion, they tend to find provocation when the sould have find humor... and the list goes on.
I teach for 23 consecutive years in the local University and this attitude, albeit in a small level, starts to annoy me. Obviously is a universal phenomenon and it appears from time to time in our forum. I don't like to be paternalistic giving advises etc, but in my twenties i was listening the opinions of my superiors, trying to learn as much as i could.
As a final comment, i believe that all the young fellows should gather some information about some people who write in the forum under their full name and learn their credentials. This fact IMHO will lead some to a decent behaviour.
Mike

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

Bass Barrister:
Mr. Warburton:
What my teacher meant by that was that he would've paid as much for a bass that sounded and played as good as mine. He knew how much I paid for it when I told him what it was.

And, IMO, your "ill informed" comment is the epitome of what is wrong with the double bass section of this website, and is probably why I don't consider myself a double bassist at all. Putting "IMO" as a prefix to your snobbery does not make it any less snobbish my friend. Although you and I share the same birthdate, I'm afraid we don't share a view on proper ways to disagree with one another.

IMO, (again) you stated what your teacher said. Not what he "meant" according to your internalization of his statement.
Putting, IMO, before my statements, IMO, gives me the personal right to make my statements, IMO.
Now, IMO, he didn't even say what you said he said? (which I really doubted in the first place.)

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

FWIW:
http://www.musicianforest.com/profile/6046

I'm glad you and your teacher like your bass. I have played a few and thought they were good for the price. $4,000? get real.

Playing lots of basses in all price ranges will give you the perspective you currently lack. We've all been there.

Good luck in your studies.

[daneatsfood]

I'm glad you're happy with your Engelhardt. I played an engelhardt for about 5 years and it held up pretty well. I had some setup issues, but for a plywood bass it sounded pretty decent and was built like a tank. It wasn't an amazing instrument, but it did it's job.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by MIKMAN

One thing that amazes me during the last five-six years is the fact that young fellows are easily offended and irritated with anyone who disagrees with them. This attitude leads to an erratic behaviour, usually characterized by arrogance, disrespect, insulting comments etc. Young guys tend to find hubris when they should have found just a different opinion, they tend to find provocation when the should have find humor... and the list goes on.
I teach for 23 consecutive years in the local University and this attitude, albeit in a small level, starts to annoy me. Obviously is a universal phenomenon and it appears from time to time in our forum. I don't like to be paternalistic giving advises etc, but in my twenties i was listening the opinions of my superiors, trying to learn as much as i could.
As a final comment, i believe that all the young fellows should gather some information about some people who write in the forum under their full name and learn their credentials. This fact IMHO will lead some to a decent behaviour.
Mike

Thanks Mike, you make some very pertinent points, especially regarding the tendency to make declarations rather than asking questions.

[Jason P Bass]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

And, IMO, your "ill informed" comment is the epitome of what is wrong with the double bass section of this website, and is probably why I don't consider myself a double bassist at all.

100% accurate observation.

Originally Posted by Rudreax

He was just making an observation. No need to let it offend you so much, and no need to group an entire section of people into such a small category. If anyone is being snobbish here, it's you for saying that.

Irony much?

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

IMO, (again) you stated what your teacher said. Not what he "meant" according to your internalization of his statement.
Putting, IMO, before my statements, IMO, gives me the personal right to make my statements, IMO.
Now, IMO, he didn't even say what you said he said? (which I really doubted in the first place.)

Actually, the OP said, and I quote:

"I purchased an Engelhardt EM1 over the summer so I could begin my studies in college as a Jazz Studies student. After reading many negative reviews regarding Engelhardts (along with many positive reviews) I must say that both myself and my teacher are extremely happy with my $1050 purchase. Upon first inspection, my teacher did not believe that I paid $1050 for the bass, and still asks me "if I'm sure I didn't pay $4,000" for it!"

And you said, and I quote:

"IMO, your teacher is ill informed."

Of course, your statement is complete nonsense unless you are calling the OP a base liar who lied to his teacher. The ONLY information possessed by the teacher in this paragraph is the purchase price of $1050. That information was provided by the OP. You declare that, in your opinion, the teacher is misinformed. Therefore, in your opinion, the OP is a lying liar who lied to his teacher. There is no other sensible interpretation of your writing.

In my opinion, calling new posters liars and morons is merely standard operating procedure around here. For bonus points, we like to act haughty and condescending if they take offense to what is a very plain insult.

The OP is 100% correct in his characterization of this message board. For further evidence, read the rest of the thread, or many others on talkbass. Don't take my word for it - just look around.

For what it's worth, I don't intend to call any particular person to task, but in this instance, Mr. Paul Warburton's first post has only one sensible interpretation, and that is to call the OP a liar. Maybe that was not the intention, but the intention is secondary to what was written.

[Marcus Johnson]

Long weekend. Thank god for Monday. School's back in session.


Oh, and Jason.... not that PW needs me to defend him from the likes of you, but as an ex-owner of an EM1, if I had a teacher mentioning "EM-1" and "$4000.00" in the same sentence, I'd be all . Maybe he was being kind and encouraging to a new student.... but yeah, that is ill-informed.

IMHFO

[Marcus Johnson]

Oh, and Powell... congratulations on your purchase. Engelhardts are perfectly servicable, well made basses in their price range. I've played many, many of them as rentals and loaners on the road. They get the job done.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Jason P Bass

In my opinion, calling new posters liars and morons is merely standard operating procedure around here. For bonus points, we like to act haughty and condescending if they take offense to what is a very plain insult.

The OP is 100% correct in his characterization of this message board. For further evidence, read the rest of the thread, or many others on talkbass. Don't take my word for it - just look around.

For what it's worth, I don't intend to call any particular person to task, but in this instance, Mr. Paul Warburton's first post has only one sensible interpretation, and that is to call the OP a liar. Maybe that was not the intention, but the intention is secondary to what was written.

PW called the teacher "misinformed". How the heck do you get from there to everything you state above. Misinformed means, to me, at least, that he doesn't really know the value of an Englehart bass compared to more expensive basses. Why does that rile you up so much? It's his opinion and he's entitled to it. You act as if those are fighting words. It
really is not a big deal. You need to get a little humility, the world does not revolve around you. A more mature response would be, "why do you say he is misinformed?"

I agree with Marcus, the teacher was either trying to make his student feel good, or, he really is misinformed.

[powellmacaque]

Mr. Paul, I did not say you had no right to say what you said. What I was saying was that "IMO" did not make your statement any less arrogant.

Furthermore, I do not post with my full name because I have been a member of TB since I was 15 and I did not feel safe putting my name on the world wide web at the time.

I do not feel any of my postings were in the least bit disrespectful, but on the contrary, I do believe that Paul's comments were of the utmost in snobbery and completely unnecessary. Am I offended? Not really. I have lurked on this side of the forum for a few years, and I was always afraid to post because nobody is overly friendly nor do they take kindly to newbies. This is in contrast to how many members of the BG forum treat each other; which is, for the most part, respectfully. You're an unhelpful scrooge who gets his jollies out of picking apart newbies, and that's not IMO, that's according to your posting history.

Once again in regards to my teacher's comments, this was UPON FIRST INSPECTION. Questioning both mine and my teacher's intelligence is not courteous, and to be honest, what he said was "IHO" and IHO he felt my bass was worth a lot more than what I paid for it. And isn't worth subjective? Or is philosophy not your strong suit?

Furthermore, not that I really need to defend my teacher any further, there is a bit of a language barrier, so I could have very easily misinterpreted what he said to me. I know that he said "are you sure you only paid $1000 for it?" and I also know that he said something about it being as nice as some $4000 basses. I admit, my first posting wasn't the best way to word what he said, and I apologize for that. The point of the story wasn't what he thought I should've paid, but the fact that he thought it was built better than many $1000 basses he's seen. Was he exaggerating? Maybe.

And for those of you treating me like a little kid, I can assure you I am not the average ill-tempered teenaged YouTuber who curses out every opposing idea. I have been playing music professionally for five years, and while that is fractional to some of you, that still puts me in the same level of play as many of you. A 5-year professional basketball player is no worse than a 20-year basketball player.

If becoming "seasoned" on an upright bass evolves me into a pretentious person who uses his credentials to demean others instead of uplifting them, I don't want anything to do with upright bass or the community.

But unfortunately for you, Mr. Warburton, my teacher is well informed in how to treat other musicians, so you'll be seeing whippersnappers like me around here for a while .

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

so you'll be seeing whippersnappers like me around her for a while .

Watch yer girl, Pee...