"Fair" condition

[drurb]

I just had to share this bass for sale in "fair" condition.

Look here.

I wonder what defines poor condition for the seller.

Ponder this: Currently, the bidding is over $200!

By the way, it doesn't look like an Engel to me.

[Jake deVilliers]

Wow, that's terrific!

Fair condition indeed; "basket case" is what it would be called if it was a car.
I agree with you about the bass not being an Engelhardt; it doesn't have a French dovetail.

It is pretty shiny though.

[TheSuzie]

But that gorgeous fingerboard inlay ....

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

...I agree with you about the bass not being an Engelhardt; it doesn't have a French dovetail...

What tipped me off was the lack of "stick on" volutes on the scroll.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Fair means you only need TWO trips to the Dumpster to throw it out. What a Dump!

...and while we were having fun here, the bid went up! Amazing.

[bassist1962]

No It doesn't look like and Engle. The purfling and neck body joint looks like my 3/4 German. It was distributed by Wm. Lewis and Sons. No. 236. Expensive garbage there on Ebay.

[Jake]

The bid is now over $400! Who are the idiots that actually bid on this and are willing to pay $100 ($100!) shipping to recieve it?

[Nuno A.]

$455 at the moment + shipping.... go figure

Nuno

[drurb]

Look here.

A fitting end, I'd say. So do you think the "error" was that it wasn't an Engelhardt or that it wasn't in "fair" condition? Something else maybe?

You can view the seller's other items to see what else is in "fair" condition.

[relacey]

Yeah, his criteria for "fair" condition are a lot lower than mine, but to be fair he did post lots of photos and seems to pretty clearly show the bidder what they are getting.

[eh_train]

Hi TBers,

I understand taking exception to the words 'Fair' condition,

BUT I don't get the negative attitude towards this bass, at all. It's most likely a German plywood - with ebony fingerboard, inlaid purfling, decent construction, etc... It needs the neck reattached, as the seller has made painfully clear. The 'inlay' on the fingerboard looks like pieces of paper taped on (this would likely take 5 minutes to remove, although you'd want to check that with the seller before bidding).

I'd be very interested in buying and fixing a bass like this. I already own two beater basses that I have put back into playing condition. The 1950s German cost me $500, while the 1940 Kay cost me $300. I put 'sweat equity' into fixing them but don't care because I learned a lot about basses in the process.

Another point - the local 'violin purveyor' in this neck of the woods would charge at least $2500 for that bass with the neck put back!

For the connoisseurs on TB, no it isn't an 1825 Flatchbelter, or what have you, but for others it could be a playable instrument at a low cost. I hope that TB continues to promote all types and levels of interest in basses and bass playing, but sometimes I wonder....

Sincerely,
Paul (Eh_train)

[drurb]

Originally Posted by eh_train

Hi TBers,

I understand taking exception to the words 'Fair' condition,

BUT I don't get the negative attitude towards this bass, at all. It's most likely a German plywood - with ebony fingerboard, inlaid purfling, decent construction, etc... It needs the neck reattached, as the seller has made painfully clear. The 'inlay' on the fingerboard looks like pieces of paper taped on (this would likely take 5 minutes to remove, although you'd want to check that with the seller before bidding).

I'd be very interested in buying and fixing a bass like this. I already own two beater basses that I have put back into playing condition. The 1950s German cost me $500, while the 1940 Kay cost me $300. I put 'sweat equity' into fixing them but don't care because I learned a lot about basses in the process.

Another point - the local 'violin purveyor' in this neck of the woods would charge at least $2500 for that bass with the neck put back!

For the connoisseurs on TB, no it isn't an 1825 Flatchbelter, or what have you, but for others it could be a playable instrument at a low cost. I hope that TB continues to promote all types and levels of interest in basses and bass playing, but sometimes I wonder....

Sincerely,
Paul (Eh_train)

Well, I think the sale was quite comical. Yes, the seller made it very apparent what the buyer would be receiving. The question was who would buy it? Sure, if you are interested in on-the-job-training regarding restoration, that could be your bass. Still, I think $400-$500 would be far too much to pay. Your "local purveyor" may charge $2500 for that bass restored but I'd say that would be an awful deal. For that money, one could have a brand new Upton hybrid!

By the way, the neck not only needed to be reattached but a portion of the top where it would be reattached was missing. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes junk is just junk. This one was junk.

[eh_train]

Hi TBers,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTON-SCHROETTER...QQcmdZViewItem

The above bass has been relisted, now appropriately described as a German ply upright...

DRURB, are you serious in saying that a bass is garbage if 1) the neck needs reattaching, and 2) a *tiny* piece of the plate on the treble side needs to be replaced??!

Would you apply your line of thinking apply to plywoods only, or would you throw out an older carved bass with a detached neck and a small amount of top damage? If you answer no to the latter case, then does it mean that plywood basses are generally more likely to fall into your 'garbage' category?

I ask because I genuinely don't get the negativity towards this bass. Once again, I hope that TBers can continue to be tolerant of all types and levels of both instruments and players.

Paul (Eh_train)

[drurb]

Originally Posted by eh_train

Hi TBers,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTON-SCHROETTER...QQcmdZViewItem

The above bass has been relisted, now appropriately described as a German ply upright...

DRURB, are you serious in saying that a bass is garbage if 1) the neck needs reattaching, and 2) a *tiny* piece of the plate on the treble side needs to be replaced??!

Would you apply your line of thinking apply to plywoods only, or would you throw out an older carved bass with a detached neck and a small amount of top damage? If you answer no to the latter case, then does it mean that plywood basses are generally more likely to fall into your 'garbage' category?

I ask because I genuinely don't get the negativity towards this bass. Once again, I hope that TBers can continue to be tolerant of all types and levels of both instruments and players.

Paul (Eh_train)

Oh, really now. It needs far more than just the neck attached. It has a name and number carved into it. The scroll is a mess. Sure, that could all likely be rahabilitated but it does not bode well for the condition of the rest of the instrument nor for how it has been cared. In addition, it has cracks and chips.

Yes, indeed, my judgment has a great deal to do with the fact that it is plwood! The point is that after the work is done to restore it, the time money and effort will only yield-- well, a plywood bass! In the case of a carved bass, you might end up with something that sounds great and that even is worth substantial $$$. It's like anything else. Whether it is worth restoring and whether the price is fair depends on what you will have in the end. It could be a car, a boat, a plane, a house, or a toaster.

This has nothing to do with intolerance of players or basses. Laminate basses have their places. I played one for years! This is a matter of common sense, practicality, and economics. In my opinion (and one that is apparently shared widely), paying nearly $500 (or even $300) for that abused and broken plywood bass makes no sense at all.

We here do a service to others who are less informed by steering them away from such "deals." It's not intolerance, it's sound advice.

Once again, for the record, I do not fault the seller who, except for the use of the word "fair" in describing the condition, is quite forthcoming about what he is selling.

[bassist1962]

Originally Posted by drurb

Oh, really now. It needs far more than just the neck attached. It has a name and number carved into it. The scroll is a mess. Sure, that could all likely be rahabilitated but it does not bode well for the condition of the rest of the instrument nor for how it has been cared. In addition, it has cracks and chips.

Yes, indeed, my judgment has a great deal to do with the fact that it is plwood! The point is that after the work is done to restore it, the time money and effort will only yield-- well, a plywood bass! In the case of a carved bass, you might end up with something that sounds great and that even is worth substantial $$$. It's like anything else. Whether it is worth restoring and whether the price is fair depends on what you will have in the end. It could be a car, a boat, a plane, a house, or a toaster.

This has nothing to do with intolerance of players or basses. Laminate basses have their places. I played one for years! This is a matter of common sense, practicality, and economics. In my opinion (and one that is apparently shared widely), paying nearly $500 (or even $300) for that abused and broken plywood bass makes no sense at all.

We here do a service to others who are less informed by steering them away from such "deals." It's not intolerance, it's sound advice.

Once again, for the record, I do not fault the seller who, except for the use of the word "fair" in describing the condition, is quite forthcoming about what he is selling.

I am not a coniseiur (sp?) of fine basses. But this does make sense to me. Why pay hundreds of dollars for the instrument, shipping and other cost incured in just getting the instrument, then have to take it to a luthier to spend hundreds more to restore this instrument. Yes, the violin people may sell this instrument restored for a coupled thousand dollars, but compare that to the price of a new plywood instrument. I am a poor musician with a fully carved German in bad need of repair - It is still playable, and well cared for but it needs seam work and set up, new strings etc. - and I have to wait for tax refund time to do some thing that is relatively inexpensive in the double bass world. Unless you are a luthier, or are planning to teach someone the craft, I don't see the sense in the expense of this instrument. Just my two cents.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by eh_train

I ask because I genuinely don't get the negativity towards this bass. Once again, I hope that TBers can continue to be tolerant of all types and levels of both instruments and players.

I think you have to realise that you may be a "special case" in terms of somebody who wants to spend a lot of time messing about with fixing up cheap basses - most people here just want to play music!!

I think people here are very tolerant - but they are genuinely trying to help others with the benefit of their experience.

So when you have good, well set-up basses available from reputable dealers at reasonable prices - it can obviously be a "false economy" for newcomers to buy a cheap and delapidated instrument in the hope they can fix it up - so the guys in this thread are doing a great service to point this out - giving the benefit of their experience..

It is not a case of "intolerance" - but rather sound advice and for free!!

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I don't even see the expense in 'time' of this thread going more that a few posts.

This is one of the things that bores me with TalkBass. Mention some historical Bass or fact and a few come out of the woodwork to briefly discuss it. Mention plywood and you have to open the stadium doors!

Why bother talking Bass if you don't talk about the real Basses that made Bass what it is. Arnold made an historical discovery the other day on the great English Makers. Even Duane Rosengard (author of the Guadagnini book, Cremona Basses, Violin lecturer, historian and Philly orch Bassist) got excited when I told him about the J.Hart stamps in my Fendt. He called Arnold 2 seconds after we hung up the phone and this is a BUSY guy mind you. But here on talk Bass, 'nobody home'!

What a shame! Study Bass, practice a life time, bust your back and it's all down to plywood?

Why doesn't the food channel talk about fast food? Because in comparison to real food, it's junk!.. Yes, it fills you up, takes less time and cheaper to feed your kids but what does it do for your health?

Plywood was and is a cheap way of making a Bass by laminating non-important wood and bending the plates to look like a Bass. It also sounds like a Bass if you're mostly plucking it and getting a boom boom out of it but the quality of the sound is just not worth a life time of study and body injuries in my book.. Sorry, that's just how I feel..

Amen to that - and I'm an atheist
I was gifted a bass after a gig once by a charming old guy who played a bit 'way back & said I was the best he'd heard since NHOP with Peterson !!! - so I had to have his old bass. Despite hoping for my "gifted an old Italian bass" story, it turned out to be a pretty fair blond Selmer. I tried using it myself, but there's just no point. It's now a happy slappin' backup bass strung with weedwhackers for a mainstream/trad friend of mine.I think this kind of illustrates Ken's point.
P.S Ken,that first bass pictured in your post is LUUUUVLY!

[D McCartney]

Originally Posted by drurb

Laminate basses have their places.

Laminate basses have their places
O Dancing feet and Smiling faces...
La la de da

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Why bother talking Bass if you don't talk about the real Basses that made Bass what it is. [...] Sorry, that's just how I feel..

I'm sorry to hear you say that Ken. But we don't all have the fortune or opportunity to be surrounded by those real basses you talk about. And I think if it bores you to read other people discussing the mere plywood basses that you would rather crap on from a great height, it might be better that you just ignore those threads, let others say what they like, and post a few *new* pictures of the great Gilkes in one of *your* threads. Sorry, that's just how I feel.

And the funny thing about ebay, is that it shows not how silly people are, but how much something is really worth to some people.

[DrBassie]

Hey Ken,

What kind of car do you drive? You can get around in a Ford, Nissan or Toyota, but you're not REALLY driving until you're behind the wheel of a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. Sure, the Nissan will get you where you want to go, but why do that when you can get there faster in a Lotus or a Rolls Royce more comfortably.

The fact is Ken, most people (including me)have ZERO experience with the basses worth the down payment on house like you are talking about. They have nothing to contribute to the discussion except "nice bass". If you're looking for more discussion on Master class instruments, maybe you should have TB make another, suitable forum for that and invite all your colleagues.

Now that being said, I don't see the point in picking up a useless laminate bass and fixing it up, just like I wouldn't see the point in fully restoring a '87 Ford Escort. If someone gets the notion to do that, despite everyone telling him otherwise, I hope he thinks it was worth it in the end. I know I wouldn't count on it.