First post... Engelhardt question

solderjunkie · #1 01-27-2008, 06:42 AM

I played a lightly used Engelhardt Blonde Swingmaster that is for sale locally.

I had a 1953 Blonde Kay (in much worse condition, of course) which was sold to make rent a few years ago.

This Engelhardt feels the same, but sounds a little thinner. It has been setup and the action is beautiful, and it looks like the strings have been replaced with some very nice flats. It has a little endpin rattle to fix, but that is no big deal.

Now that we established a little background... on to the question:

Is this the same level of quality as my old Kay??? will it age as gracefully, or is it typical of most newer instruments and will turn to crap as it ages?

I know Engelhardt bought Kay's facility and tooling, but are they really making the same bass???

BTW... I now have a gig playing with an Irish Blues Punk Rocker band now, so there will be no bowing

solderjunkie · #2 01-27-2008, 08:44 PM

No love for plywood???

What a tough crowd

MingusAmongUs · #3 01-27-2008, 08:54 PM

I'm sure the usual suspects will chime in here eventually but maybe it's because Engelhardt is a young(er) company, it doesn't have quite the same "mojo" as Kay... but like any bass, they probably differ vastly from year to year and model to model. Some diamonds and some lemons too. Generally they're seen as decent entry-level or road warrior basses. Good value for the price. If you look after it (and if it's not a lemon) it should last plenty long. The "thinner" sound could be a symptom of its youth, or its strings, or a poor soundpost placement, or about 300 other things. Some folks say the neck is too thin and promotes poor left hand technique. I have no opinion on the matter.

Steve Swan · #4 01-27-2008, 09:27 PM

I'm no big fan of Kays, only about 10% of them that I play would ever end up in my house as a 2nd bass. Engelhardts are a different story. I have only played one Engelhardt, an example from 1970, that I would ever even consider as a summer festival-only bass. The rest have been heavy, stiff, thin-sounding "instruments" with difficult-to-play pencil necks. Blechh!!!

Engelhardt fans, fire away. My skin is very thick!

ZachDad · #5 01-27-2008, 10:42 PM

+1 on Mingus' post! It really depends on which one you get.
Odds are a swingmaster would be a decent to good entry level bass. I have an M-1 that after a lot of tweaking I like very much. I must admit in hindsight, I would probably go a different way...maybe a New Standard for not a whole lot more considering proper set up etc.

drurb · #6 01-28-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZachDad

+1 on Mingus' post! It really depends on which one you get.
Odds are a swingmaster would be a decent to good entry level bass. I have an M-1 that after a lot of tweaking I like very much. I must admit in hindsight, I would probably go a different way...maybe a New Standard for not a whole lot more considering proper set up etc.

Sure, individual basses of the same model do differ. Let's be real, though. Plywood Engels may differ from example to example but there's a pretty firm limit on how good even the best of them will be. IMO, that's not very good at all.

ZachDad, your statement that you'd go for a New Standard over your M-1 is certainly understandable but "for not a whole lot more considering proper set up etc."

The Cleveland is $4200! How much do you have in your M-1? You could gain a vast improvement over the M-1 and save $2500 by going with the Upton entry laminate.

RHayton · #7 02-02-2008, 11:22 PM

Bought my first bass about 18 months ago, an Engelhardt M-1, gave $1100 for it, then immediately spent about $500 on set up, new strings, new bridge. I also had the sprayed-on shellac sanded off of the neck and had it treated with linseed oil, then replaced the coat hanger tail piece with cable. It is now a decent sounding base, fairly easy to play, and I play it at about two hours a day and gig about 2-3 times a month.

Having said that, I plan in about six months or a year to replace it with a better bass, either a new hybrid, or a used carved, because I want the ebony fingerboard and the increased resonance. I'll then sell the Engelhardt knowing I won't get back what I have in it.

Looking back, for only about another $1000 I could have gotten an Upton Hybrid or a Shen that I may have considered my last bass as well as first.

drurb · #8 02-03-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHayton

Bought my first bass about 18 months ago, an Engelhardt M-1, gave $1100 for it, then immediately spent about $500 on set up, new strings, new bridge...

Looking back, for only about another $1000 I could have gotten an Upton Hybrid or a Shen that I may have considered my last bass as well as first.

While it wasn't available 18 months ago when you bought, for just $100 more than you spent (plus strings), one could grab the Upton "standard" laminate. Kinda puts things into perspective, IMO.

wendell · #9 02-03-2008, 11:19 AM

Since you're in Nashville, if you haven't already checked out Dustin Williams shop, I would do so. He has a fine reputation based on people posting here. I believe he also is a Shen dealer and might have other good basses in the ply category. The Shen sb80 can be had for around $1400, including upgrades and setup work --not sure what DW charges for his.

MingusAmongUs · #10 02-03-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

While it wasn't available 18 months ago when you bought, for just $100 more than you spent (plus strings), one could grab the Upton "standard" laminate. Kinda puts things into perspective, IMO.

Jesu Christi, we get it

drurb · #11 02-03-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

Jesu Christi, we get it

"We"? Maybe not. My post was in answer to his response about spending $1000 more for an Upton. Perhaps you missed the context.

Jake deVilliers · #12 02-03-2008, 03:29 PM

Perhaps Mingus is simply tired, as am I, of your continual promotion of Upton.
It makes both you and Upton look bad Drubb.

drurb · #13 02-03-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Perhaps Mingus is simply tired, as am I, of your continual promotion of Upton.
It makes both you and Upton look bad Drubb.

You know, I have made very little mention of Upton or their products for months. That's hardly "continual promotion." Take a look through the threads if you don't believe that. I'm actually tired of the whining about this. I responded to someone who mentioned Upton first and those guys hardly need "promotion" from me.

Gearhead43 · #14 02-04-2008, 12:51 AM

Solderjunkie,

80% of the guys on talkbass are classical music only, silver spoon, elitist snobs who can't even be nice to each other, as you can see from some above posts.

You might want to ask your question about the Swingmaster in the rockabilly, or bluegrass forum - or become a member over at rockabillybass.com. This forum was no help to me whatsoever as a doublebass newbie, and I am surprised that they don't charge people to become members and do social status checks first.

Goodbye.

Jason Sypher · #15 02-04-2008, 07:17 AM

Well, what do you say about that? It's really not true, 80% are not classical guys at all. The silver spoon reference is silly because the truth is, if you're a classical player in an orchestra you have worked your ass off in a very competitive business and don't make a lot of money for the effort. I bet there are less than 5% on this forum that are playing in an orchestra. And furthermore, what could be less 'elitist' than playing classical music? True, there can be some ridiculous arguments etc but that's just the way it is when you get a diverse group of people from different backgrounds on the web together. When you see a thread get sidetracked just get back on subject and it usually rights itself. I don't think anyone here has a problem with plywood basses etc. In fact, many players with expensive carved basses have a working ply at home as well. They serve an important purpose and can even have a more appropriate sound for certain situations. A lot of newbies and/or ply guys seem to be intimidated by the forum but it's more in your head than reality. You should definitely subscribe to other forums so as to get perspective and insight. I think the general rule on all basses is 'you get what you pay for'. Engelharts are cheap for a reason. You may find a nice one, I certainly have over the years, but they are not generally regarded as a great instrument. That said, they will get the job done and a lot has to do with your ears and the sound that you are trying to get.

ZachDad · #16 02-04-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

ZachDad, your statement that you'd go for a New Standard over your M-1 is certainly understandable but "for not a whole lot more considering proper set up etc."

The Cleveland is $4200! How much do you have in your M-1? You could gain a vast improvement over the M-1 and save $2500 by going with the Upton entry laminate.

My bad...I was thinking along the lines of an Upton, the point being there are perhaps better choices for the money than an Englehardt in need of a set up.

drurb · #17 02-04-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZachDad

My bad...I was thinking along the lines of an Upton, the point being there are perhaps better choices for the money than an Englehardt in need of a set up.

I certainly agree!

Cathead · #18 02-05-2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:

A lot of newbies and/or ply guys seem to be intimidated by the forum but it's more in your head than reality.

I don't think it's in my head. It's been posted that I should use my bass for a boat to fish from and then chop it up for firewood to cook the fish. I don't see where that is a very tactful way to discuss the quality of a newbie's bass who is looking for a little encouragement. I have been snubbed because I don't have access to a teacher among other things. I would never do someone that way. It didn't take me long to become mostly a lurker over here. I have noticed a lot of helpful folks on this forum, and that's why I hang around. But I don't say a lot here because I usually get "shot down" when I open my "mouth" by the ones who are not so nice.

Steve Swan · #19 02-05-2008, 08:30 AM

I attended a concert by a couple of national level Bluegrass groups last night, Spring Creek from Lyons, CO and Town Mountain from NC. The difference in bass stage sound between an Engelhardt and a dencent bass couldn't have been more apparent. Poor Jessica Smith of Spring Creek was beating herself to death on a refinished Engelhardt that had all of the resonance of a kitchen tabletop. Barret ______ of Town Mountain sounded great on a borrowed Romanian flatback bass that he used on this tour. Barret was able to easily hold down the bottom end and play with some tonal and dynamic variation that would have been impossible if he had been using Jessica's heavy, dead-sounding bass.

Gufenov · #20 02-05-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solderjunkie

... on to the question:

Is this the same level of quality as my old Kay??? will it age as gracefully, or is it typical of most newer instruments and will turn to crap as it ages?

The answer, sans all the Engelhardt bashing and Upton shilling, is MAYBE.

As Mingus pointed out, any "brand" can differ from year to year and model to model, and individual instruments can vary greatly. While the molds and process may be the same as the old Kays, the glues used to laminate the ply may - or may not, age differently. The woods may be different from those available decades ago. A different generation of workers does the assembly, in the employ of different ownership / management.

I'm pleased with my 2003 ES1 and I hope it continues to age gracefully. Only time will tell.