Five String Double Bass Usage

PRUNEFACE · #1 03-20-2010, 08:51 PM

Why do people not use five-string double basses more in the United States? How do people reach those low B's with a C extension?
My teacher mentioned the fifth string adding tension to the top, and unless the bass is made especially for being a five string that it wouldn't sound as good as a comparable four (assuming all things were equal). I've also heard that the Berlin and Vienna Philharmonics use fivers, yet I can never find a video of them playing one, as most videos show them either playing solo where a fifth string would not be used, or are playing with the orchestra and the camera never shows them... frustrating...

Could we compile a list of five-string players throughout the world?

robobass · #2 03-21-2010, 03:59 AM

There are probably dozens of threads on this if you search the archive. The short answer is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both. With an extension, you have more difficulty accessing the lowest notes. With a five string, you have more tension, so you tend to lose resonance. Also, the 5-ers tend to be bigger and stiffer, so are harder to play. German orchestras use 5-ers almost exclusively, but the players usually use a four stringer for solo and chamber music. Other European countries use a mix of four and five string basses in their orchestras, but very few extensions. It's like the French/German bow. There are trade-offs to each, and each "school" will adopt one type over the other.

"How do people reach those low B's with a C extension?"
Well, they don't, but C is low enough 99.99% of the time!

Bill Bentgen · #3 03-21-2010, 06:17 AM

I've played a 5-string bass for the last 11 years.

I agree with the comments that unless the bass is made for 5-strings, top pressure can be an issue. My Pöllmann is as loud or louder than most basses.

There are advantages to a 5-stringer beyond the low notes. I use the low f# and G at the neck a lot. It saves a dive back to 1st position.

The Karajan videos with the Berlin Philharmonic shows the 5 string basses. Keep in mind that a lot of the section shots in those videos were staged and not taken during the actual performance.

Joe Guestefesti (sp?), principal of Chicago plays a 5-string. There are 4 of us I know of in the Washington D.C. area, who play 5-string basses, although we aren't in the same league as Joe. :-)

A lot of people who have tried my bass wish they had a 5-stringer.

Paul Warburton · #4 03-21-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRUNEFACE

Could we compile a list of five-string players throughout the world?

If Jazzy players like me can be in there, I am one. (Jazzy player and five stringer).

PRUNEFACE · #5 03-21-2010, 07:12 AM

Im not exactly new here (over a year now?) and have done searches. I see they both have advantages and disadvantages, but to me it does nor make since why the five string isnt more widely used. It sounds as if as long as you play a made-for-five strings that it would sound better than a conversion.

EDIT: Sounded more "terse" than I wanted it to. I typed the above response on my iPhone so I try to avoid being too wordy...
But once again, a five-string just makes more sense from my point of view (which is rather inexperienced, I have only played on several basses with C extensions.) as they would have both a greater range and (in many situations) a louder sound. The only negative I see is very, very few old basses that are up to the conversion.

Eric Hochberg · #6 03-21-2010, 09:27 AM

Andy Anderson of the Lyric Opera of Chicago plays a 5 string. He owns 3 Pohlmanns. The one I tried played like butter with a super easy set up which he explained to me, but at this point I forget the details, but it is something he came up with after much trial and error. His explanation for using the 5 string, "The most elegant solution".

Hector Wolff · #7 03-21-2010, 01:36 PM

Didn't I read somewhere that the fingerboard width, string spacing and bridge arc, all make a 5 more difficult to play - especially in the faster passages that may require frequent string crossings?

Paul Warburton · #8 03-21-2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector Wolff

Didn't I read somewhere that the fingerboard width, string spacing and bridge arc, all make a 5 more difficult to play - especially in the faster passages that may require frequent string crossings?

Difficulty is in the eyes of the Difficultor.

Mike Arnopol · #9 03-21-2010, 02:21 PM

I'm addicted to 5 string on electric. (I play jazz) I just commisioned a lovely bass and to be honest, I wish I would have done a 5er. I studied under Joe and have played his Busan (????) 5er. I think that adding a 5th string has done that bass a disservice. I had the most stunning Hawkes Panormo that I bought from Tom Martin. It was set up as a 5 and I think the added tension helped the bass. It felt more open than the 4 string Hawkes Panormo's that I've played. I was a dumbass and sold it. (it's in the Chicago Lyric opera now)

AMJBASS · #10 03-21-2010, 02:36 PM

I have owned a 5 string DB briefly, and I wouldn't hesitate to try one again(that particularly bass I had was just too difficult to play). When I play bass guitar I usually play a 5 string and its just so nice to have not only the low notes, but especially the ability to stay in one position longer.

Paul Warburton · #11 03-21-2010, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

It was set up as a 5 and I think the added tension helped the bass. It felt more open than the 4 string Hawkes Panormo's that I've played.

My 1888 bass was specifically designed as a fiver....I got curious once and disabled the low B. Never will I try that again.
It's not particularly the loudest bass in the world, but it is the most even... up, down and all around the board with the most pizz sustain of any bass I've ever known.

Marcus Johnson · #12 03-21-2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Difficultor.

Whoa... I just had a Dubya flashback.

TheBasicBassist · #13 03-21-2010, 03:45 PM

Any Vinny Burke love? He was an absolutely killing bassist and avid 5-string bass guy.
Plywood double bass w/ strings made of steel and tone to die for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SagCCeZXZo

Thumpie · #14 03-21-2010, 03:52 PM

I've got a 5-stringer of my own design for sale in the classifieds section. My luthier thought it was an ingeious idea for a cheap bass, but those with 100-year old European basses aren't going to do what I did.

I thought the 5 string was great for pizz. jazz playing, but, for arco, it required a lot of attention to bow placement, as there wasn't a lot of room around the bouts.

I assume that this is one of the main drawbacks of the 5 string, though I image it could be gotten around by building the neck and bridge higher (which would probably lead to other problems...).

JtheJazzMan · #15 03-21-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector Wolff

Didn't I read somewhere that the fingerboard width, string spacing and bridge arc, all make a 5 more difficult to play - especially in the faster passages that may require frequent string crossings?

Fingerboard width is bass dependant. My fiver has a standard 4 string width FB, and the effect of that is the outer strings are closer to the edge of the FB compared to a 4 string.

On the other hand my mentor also uses a fiver and has a massive ironwood FB. Much wider.

My string spacing is 22mm between strings on the bridge. (bass is 105cm string length btw.) Thats another personal preference/bass dependant thing.

Arco definitely requires more precision on my bass, considering it is basically 5 strings on a 4 string FB. Theres less room for sloppy motion in the arms. But theres nothing wrong with the bass, only with the amount of practice I put in.

PRUNEFACE · #16 03-21-2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robobass

"How do people reach those low B's with a C extension?"
Well, they don't, but C is low enough 99.99% of the time!

I realize that

BUT wouldn't more people want that B so that they can play music as written?

robobass · #17 03-21-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRUNEFACE

... I see they both have advantages and disadvantages, but to me it does nor make since why the five string isnt more widely used. It sounds as if as long as you play a made-for-five strings that it would sound better than a conversion.

Five stringers are widely used, just not in North America. Also, in some cases a well done conversion sounds quite good, while there are crappy 5-ers (just like there are crappy 4-ers). You can't really base anything on conversion vs. original. Don't forget that most 18thC basses are already conversions.

Why doesn't everybody play five? I always wondered why some slab players still play four. There must be reasons, and for UB there are plenty.

For me, I just don't like the way they respond. All the five-stringers I have played simply lack a certain bow response and purity of tone that a good four-string can have. I don't know exactly why, but I suspect some reasons are:

1. A "B" string has ~70 lbs. of tension. That's a lot, and needs to be dealt with when building/converting/setting up a 5-er. Tone must be sacrificed - pure and simple.

2. You have an extra set of partials which will interact and interfere with notes on the other strings. Simpler is better. Fourths tuning already compromises resonance (check the 5ths tuning threads), so adding another string just compromises things further.

3. A subcontra B is pretty darned low. 41-42" is simply not enough string length to do it right. Do you know how long an organ pipe must be to play that pitch? Doing a C with ~52" of string works a lot better.

4. This one is speculation, but isn't it necessary to have a free and flexible bridge if you want to produce a rich and lively sound? What could possibly dampen a bridge more than a Flexocor B-5? Maybe a ten pound hunk of lead?

So, that said, a good five-string can sound and play quite respectably, and many people around the world use them. There are however implicit physical disadvantages which make a C-Extension an attractive alternative.

robobass · #18 03-21-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRUNEFACE

I realize that

BUT wouldn't more people want that B so that they can play music as written?

Is this a put-on?
What music? There are no "B"s in the orchestral literature! The fifth string is tuned to B to maintain fourths, not because there is an actual need for the note. OK. Strauss wrote a few (and I mean a very very few), and some modern composers here and there, but it's statistically insignificant and absolutely not an argument. You might have other reasons for wanting a low B, but you could always get a B-Extension. So there

PRUNEFACE · #19 03-21-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robobass

Is this a put-on?
What music? There are no "B"s in the orchestral literature! The fifth string is tuned to B to maintain fourths, not because there is an actual need for the note. OK. Strauss wrote a few (and I mean a very very few), and some modern composers here and there, but it's statistically insignificant and absolutely not an argument. You might have other reasons for wanting a low B, but you could always get a B-Extension. So there

I've got some music with a low-B-flat! it is by a relative nobody, but in the high school symphonic band theyre not exactly going to be playing the great symphonies -afterall, the bass is the only stringed instrument.

Hector Wolff · #20 03-21-2010, 07:26 PM

Hi Paul,

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific - I was thinking about orchestra music and bowing - and those fast cross string bow changes.

I am thinking how hard some of the sixteenth note and really fast eighth note passages are in some Beethoven - and imagining how much harder it might be with a wider board and strings closer together and with possibly less arc separating them.

I doubt my technique would be up to it, and I have often thought how nice it would be not to have to transpose individual notes or whole phrases up an octave. It is rarely very satisfactory musically to have to do that.