Flatbacks (Kolstein vs Shen - Willow/Maple) for pizz

**Adrian Cho** · #1 09-04-2006, 02:12 AM

I have played the Kolstein Fendts but have not played any of the Shens flatbacks. From all reading I've done about other people's experiences, the Kolsteins are much better for arco than pizz. The consensus seems to be that the tone is not focused enough. When I played the Fendts, they had steel strings and I was alone in a small room so it's hard to say what the bass might be like in real world situations. I already have a hard enough time with definition since I insist on playing on gut and my suspicion is that gut on one of those basses would be terrible for jazz.

Interestingly the Shens do not seem be thought of in the same way. There are apparently a lot of people using the Shen Willow flatbacks (both 3/4 and 7/8) for pizz playing and they seem to like them.

Can anyone comment on the Shen 7/8 Willow vs Maple?

Thanks

Adrian

**Adrian Cho** · #2 09-04-2006, 10:09 AM

Yes for me this is all about playing un-amped. I have really come hate having to muck with amplification. Even just having to drag it along to a gig is such a pain. When I can bring just the bass (and be heard and hear myself) it's such a wonderful thing. I quite often drag the amplification along but if I can do without it then it makes me very happy. I did this yesterday with a piano and sax at a noisy cocktail party and how great it was.

The Shens do cost a lot less than the Kolstein Fendts. A few years ago I did play some roundback Shens at Narhmann's shop which were carved but didn't seem to be very high end and I wasn't very impressed. On the same trip I did play the Fendt models at Barrie's shop and I was impressed with the sound but found the setup pretty poor (although Barrie implied that they were just roughly setup and are only really setup once they are sold). And like most people I thought the antiquing and the varnish was not very nice. I found the overall finish and craftmanship of the Kolsteins to be pretty poor for the price level. By comparison, the Shens I see in the photos seem to be very nice especially for the money.

But back to the sound - there do not seem to be many people playing the Kolstein Fendts for jazz. Only one or two around here and then there are at least one or two people who had one and gave it up because it didn't work for them - nice, huge sound but no focus apparently. On the other hand, the folks with the Shen Willow flatbacks seem to be very happy with them for jazz.

PB+J · #3 09-04-2006, 12:52 PM

I have a shen willow 7/8 flatback, and I love it, but I'm just a part time player and don't have extensive experience. It's especially pleasing right around the neck heel--a very sweet, round tone. Mine is less "bassy" than I expected, but it's a very full sound, especially with the bow. Very rich in the lower register and I just love the sound down there. But it's not tubby or overwhelmingly fundamental in tone. It's well-balanced

Coincidentally my teacher, Aaron Clay, uses a Shen 7/8 willow flatback in the US Marine band at the White House and in jazz work around town. He's a pretty dazzling player. He's convinced the higher-end Shen's are great values.

**Adrian Cho** · #4 09-04-2006, 01:00 PM

Thanks PB. Did you try the Shen 7/8 Maple flatback at all? The words "rich, full, organ-like" always seem to be used to describe the Willow back instruments but it also seems to be related mostly to arco. I have to wonder how punch they have compared to the Maple.

It does indeed seem to me that the higher-end Shens are great value. Unfortunately I've yet to play or see one yet

On a trip a few years I tried to find one of the 7/8 flatbacks to check out but there were none around.

shwashwa · #5 09-04-2006, 01:56 PM

i have a completely different experience with the kolstein fendt model. i'd have to say that the ones you tried were probably roughly set up as you described, because the playability and action on mine is to die for. unfocused is definately not a word i would use to describe it either. i have not heard anyone say that they sound unfocused, but i'll take your word for it. mine is very nice and extremely well set up, and it was set up by barrie's shop, not someone else after i bought it. you can have him set it up exactly the way you like it before you buy it. i had the shape of the bridge changed twice, but once was indeed after i bought it and had lived with it for a while and decided that i needed a slight change. i selected mine out of a group of about 5, and there definately was some variability, and i got the one i considered the best. you can hear one if you go to the talkbass sample page and check out the samples from steve swanson. there are 2 there and both have solos in them. they were recorded with a mic about 3 feet in front of the bass and nothing else. just dont comment on his playing if you dont like it as i hear is ego is pretty fragile. :-)

**Adrian Cho** · #6 09-04-2006, 02:12 PM

Actually the comments about the sound being unfocused are not mine but from others (some of which can be found here on TB). DaveK is the one person who I know in particular has one (but he didn't say the sound was unfocused) and plays jazz although his is the original that Barrie made and not necessarily like those you would buy from the shop now. As I said, I played a whole bunch of them in Barrie's store and they certainly had a big sound. I didn't think of them at that time as unfocused but the sound certainly had a kind of fullness to it.

Thanks for your comments. I am interested to hear from folks such as yourself as well as the Shen owners and those that have tried both basses. Can I ask you what kind of strings you have on it and what kinds of situations you typically play in? DaveK has often described his Kolstein Fendt as a real cannon. Do you think yours has a great big sound?

Thanks

shwashwa · #7 09-04-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

Actually the comments about the sound being unfocused are not mine but from others (some of which can be found here on TB). DaveK is the one person who I know in particular has one and plays jazz although his is the original that Barrie made and not necessarily like those you would buy from the shop now. As I said, I played a whole bunch of them in Barrie's store and they certainly had a big sound. I didn't think of them at that time as unfocused but the sound certainly had a kind of fullness to it.

Thanks for your comments. I am interested to hear from folks such as yourself as well as the Shen owners and those that have tried both basses. Can I ask you what kind of strings you have on it and what kinds of situations you typically play in? DaveK has often described his Kolstein Fendt as a real cannon. Do you think yours has a great big sound?

Thanks

i use corelli mediums on mine. while i know they are not similar to gut, i think that due to the low tension, they may put a smlilar amount of pressure on the top table as gut, and i do like the volume of my bass as well as the tone with that low pressure. as far as the situations i use my bass in, i perform in a jazz quartet mostly and i practice classically alot, so for me the corelli's are a perfect choice as i like the pizz tone alot and they bow like a dream for me and sound very warm and soft under the bow (i'm practicing solo repetiore mostly, not orchestral section stuff). my corelli's are over a year old, and i have no plans on changing them anytime soon. i think that has alot to do with why they sound warm under the bow. i dont perform unamplified like you do, but i do record that way and i happen to love my acoustic tone both in person and in the studio, although the situations i play in dont allow for the use of no amp...the tone on the recording is just bass through a mic that's not very near the f hole, so i think it's fairly accurate to what it would sound like in a room.

PB+J · #8 09-04-2006, 03:26 PM

Adrian:

I haven't tried a maple. Aaron had a maple and a willow, and he said he liked the willow better.

For what it's worth, I've got animas on mine--it came with Spiros and it had a very impressive, typical spiro sound. It might have been a bit louder with the spiros. But I like the animas better

**Adrian Cho** · #9 09-04-2006, 04:08 PM

Steve - very nice samples. It does tend to confirm a suspicion I have that those basses sound better with steel strings than gut. I don't mean for tension but for definition just because the willow tends to have a softer sound. When I tried the Fendts at Barrie's store, I think they all had Varicors and they sounded nice but it was hard to imagine what they might sound like with gut.

shwashwa · #10 09-04-2006, 05:44 PM

yeah, i can see where you might want to go with maple if you're going to use gut

**Adrian Cho** · #11 09-04-2006, 06:25 PM

Ken, I don't use wound gut. On the A and (extended) E I am using Pirastro Permanents but on the G and D I am using Gamut Lyon varnished light gauge. These are unwound guts made by Dan Larson in MN (gamutstrings.com). They are great for playing old school jazz and baroque with other gut-strung instruments but will not blend in with an orchestral bass section at all. A compromise would be to use Olivs or Eudoxas which would sound fine in a section. I've never altered the string spacing for gut.