Gamba Italian Basses..

[CultureSliver]

Looking at the scrolls, it is obvious that the gears are the same with similar placement. Your scroll is wider( more space for base plates)by about 4mm. The volutes are also set even wheras my scroll tilts inward with very extended final curl(more similar to your Guadininni 1802 front view). The tuning machines may be replacements, the neck was replaced around the turn of the century. There is a strong resemblance to the 2 Kolstein basses as well(all tuning pegs placed similar, similar overall shape). Mine differs from all three with the front view, mainly the volutes curl spacing. One shop dated the bass(at least the body) as early as late 18th century. Yours dates mid/late 1800s.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by CultureSliver

Looking at the scrolls, it is obvious that the gears are the same with similar placement. Your scroll is wider( more space for base plates)by about 4mm. The volutes are also set even whereas my scroll tilts inward with very extended final curl(more similar to your Guadininni 1802 front view). The tuning machines may be replacements, the neck was replaced around the turn of the century. There is a strong resemblance to the 2 Kolstein basses as well(all tuning pegs placed similar, similar overall shape). Mine differs from all three with the front view, mainly the volutes curl spacing. One shop dated the bass(at least the body) as early as late 18th century. Yours dates mid/late 1800s.

Both Scrolls look to be are from Central Europe. I can't see on yours any signs of earlier Gears but I do see some repair plugs on the bottom of the Cheeks. If that Scroll is part of the Bass, then it looks more German/Czech than anything else. For Gears, look at my Loveri. It had 2 sets of Gears before the current ones and those have been moved once as well from the E being higher than the G and then back the current way.

All of the Neapolitan Scrolls and FFs I have seen are slightly to very long in comparison. I don't know if what Kolstein has is correct either. I have seen pictures of two Gagliano's (or school of) and played two more recently, one of them ex-Homer Mensch. All four of these Basses were the same style in wood, shape and model. The Kolstein Basses do not resemble them much at all. Your Bass looks French in the Body and German in the Head. From the pictures, it doesn't look over 100 years old. The Varnish looks newer as well. Does your Bass show any signs of re-finish? Sanding scars? By the way, in the 19th and early 20th centuries many Germans made French looking Basses to get away from the typical Germanic look. Many of these Basses pass for French and look French at first glance. The fact is, they are made in Germany and just have French features but mixed with German features. You don't see many French Basses with Germanic features. I don't think the French were that fond of the Germans to copy them.

In either case, I don't see it as old as claimed or Italian unless it's something modern. Modern Basses pool ideas from various Basses in the past and put them into one Bass. Old Basses don't have much of this. One note is that on the 1802 Bass on my site (what ever that Bass really is) the maker of the Bass did not make that Scroll. It is a Czech style Scroll all the way as far as I can see. My guess is that the maker made the Bass and bought a commercial Scroll for it. The Varnish matches fairly well so that's my take on it for how things add up.

Basses go thru hell over the years and it is very possible that they get re-finished over time along the way. A 200 year old Bass re-varnished 100 years ago for what ever reason can still look original. Re-finishing often makes the Bass actually look older as some of the Varnish stays in the pores and corners and repair areas and adds patina as well.

Look at my Martini and tell me what you think of its look as far as age goes and the Varnish. Then I will tell you something of fact that I happen to know about its life and history that is not obvious when looking at the Bass now.

When you show Basses to people that have seen 100s or even 1000's of old Basses inside and out and have no monetary connections to the Bass as well as able to judge fairly (not all can) then you will hear opinions that are sometimes hard to believe. Speculation is just that but if someone knew a Bass over a 40 year period and can tell you the before an after, you must go with fact and first hand knowledge over opinion. Look at the Martini and I will tell you an interesting story that can apply to any old Bass as well as how dealers conflict between fact and fiction for financial gain.

[CultureSliver]

"Your Bass looks French in the Body and German in the Head. From the pictures, it doesn't look over 100 years old. The Varnish looks newer as well. Does your Bass show any signs of re-finish? Sanding scars? By the way, in the 19th and early 20th centuries many Germans made French looking Basses to get away from the typical Germanic look."
Good eyes Ken. The scroll(upon removing a tuning gear) has a blood red varnish. The original varnish was much lighter and amber. The body has been refinished and does have sanding scars. I know for a fact that the bass spent a portion of its life in Germany. It was suspect that in this time, the bass had a neck graft and was refinished(possibly to cover the replaced section of the top by the C-bout, and match the aftermarket scroll).
The Martini bass looks as though it is 100 years old. It would appear that the finish is original. I do see the high edging, round back, and the side profile(all very similar to my bass) hinting towards the newer Italian school. Overall a very nice bass.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by CultureSliver

"Your Bass looks French in the Body and German in the Head. From the pictures, it doesn't look over 100 years old. The Varnish looks newer as well. Does your Bass show any signs of re-finish? Sanding scars? By the way, in the 19th and early 20th centuries many Germans made French looking Basses to get away from the typical Germanic look."
Good eyes Ken. The scroll(upon removing a tuning gear) has a blood red varnish. The original varnish was much lighter and amber. The body has been refinished and does have sanding scars. I know for a fact that the bass spent a portion of its life in Germany. It was suspect that in this time, the bass had a neck graft and was refinished(possibly to cover the replaced section of the top by the C-bout, and match the aftermarket scroll).
The Martini bass looks as though it is 100 years old. It would appear that the finish is original. I do see the high edging, round back, and the side profile(all very similar to my bass) hinting towards the newer Italian school. Overall a very nice bass.

When I bought the Martini I asked if the Varnish was all original. It was still in Italy at that time. The seller swore it was all original. After I got the Bass, two industry professionals that looked the Bass for me. One called the Restorer who's label was in the Bass and mentioned he had 'over varnished or re-varnished' the Bass. I wasn't sure exactly what he meant. Then I emailed the restorer to ask him to explain as well as report this information to the seller in Italy. The seller swears it is original once again. The restorer then called the other Bass professional and explained in Italian exactly what he did with t he bass. That person called me to explain in detail so here's the story;

The Bass was used in the late 20th century by an Italian 'Community Band' (El Bando...etc?). It was 'painted Black' at that time and when the Restorer took possession of the Bass. I don't know if there was any original Varnish under the Black paint but in order to restore the Bass, the Black had to be completely stripped off. I suppose that some of the original Martini 'Red' that he was known for was still in parts of the Bass or in the wood pores. The Restorer then re-varnished the entire Bass trying to duplicate the Martini Varnish. To me, only the Ribs are obviously re-done. the Back has a few signs but the Top looks good. Still it has been refinished and was necessary to do so. I then reported this to the seller in Italy that I have the truth form the exact guy that restored it and not just an opinion.

The seller to cover his butt sent me a certificate saying he guarantees the Varnish to be 100% original! What? I spoke indirectly to the guy who re-varnished it. How can the seller send a certificate after the fact? Well, due to some other mis-dealings he has done, he is in some hot water over there, VERY Hot water!

Just one more example about this industry of experts. One Italian Expert tells the truth about what he did to save the Bass and another says it never happened. What is this world coming to?

On your Bass under the Gears, Red is not all that uncommon. The Brass plates over time 'bleed' into the Varnish and changes the color slightly. I was curious if you noticed screw holes from other gears filled in under the varnish. If not, that Scroll is either Germanic or the Gears that are Germanic were put on that Bass wherever that Scroll is from.

[CultureSliver]

It is a matter of utter misfortune that basses are so highly misrepresented today. I hope that the refinish didn't alter the basses value.
On the matter of Germanic tuning gears, from what I understand, these gears were used throughout the region based off of quality rather than locality. Some even dating back to late 18th cent. As far as originallity, it is hard to tell. Tell me what you see in the picture

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by CultureSliver

It is a matter of utter misfortune that basses are so highly misrepresented today. I hope that the refinish didn't alter the basses value.
On the matter of Germanic tuning gears, from what I understand, these gears were used throughout the region based off of quality rather than locality. Some even dating back to late 18th cent. As far as originallity, it is hard to tell. Tell me what you see in the picture

I don't see any evidence of other Gears so those are original to that Scroll from where I sit. Also, that 'chippy' type Varnish is Germanic looking at well.

On the Martini value wise there were 45 Basses made by him and most are still in Europe with a few I know of in the US. According to one expert that also once owned and played on a Martini, mine is the best he has seen out of a handful he has known. It is the best sounding Italian Bass I have heard for it's age. The Varnish on the Bass now is at least as good as what Martini would have used. Value is what I can sell it for. Right now I have it in the upper 5s. I like this Bass personally so it wont go cheap when it does.

[CultureSliver]

I was entertaining your first suggestion of the Jacquet school. Ironically, Duane Rosengard placed it as possible Xavier Jacquet(based off of the high edging). So I looked into him, and his basses have VERY similar if not identical edging and an overall similar outline. F-holes are a little different(closer to the lower rib) with larger holes. The only thing that doesn't fit is the sound.
Typically, French basses are more nasal and bright. I was just playing a fine cello form Claudot and it has that big sound but not as much focus and much more of a nasal sound, nearly the extreme opposite of my bass. The owner of that bass said, and I quote,"your bass is one of the finest instruments I've ever played",and he has played many fine basses. What are some characteristics of Jacquet basses?
All things aside, the bass is not put together to its full potential. The glue in the seams(which have all been apart) is at least 60 years old and crispy. The back is not aligned with the ribs, and I am fairly certain that the linings are not in full contact with the ribs.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by CultureSliver

I was entertaining your first suggestion of the Jacquet school. Ironically, Duane Rosengard placed it as possible Xavier Jacquet(based off of the high edging). So I looked into him, and his basses have VERY similar if not identical edging and an overall similar outline. F-holes are a little different(closer to the lower rib) with larger holes. The only thing that doesn't fit is the sound.
Typically, French basses are more nasal and bright. I was just playing a fine cello form Claudot and it has that big sound but not as much focus and much more of a nasal sound, nearly the extreme opposite of my bass. The owner of that bass said, and I quote,"your bass is one of the finest instruments I've ever played",and he has played many fine basses. What are some characteristics of Jacquet basses?
All things aside, the bass is not put together to its full potential. The glue in the seams(which have all been apart) is at least 60 years old and crispy. The back is not aligned with the ribs, and I am fairly certain that the linings are not in full contact with the ribs.

Well, many old Basses have been re-graduated by now so that's for one. Also, if it's been opened then the Lining could have been cut down or replaced as well. Most likely the cornerblocks are original but upper and lower should be looked at as well. Blocks and thicknesses are often overdone oin French Basses. Duane had the same guess as me. So that's where I would look, late 19th century French. That matches up with your Bass but not so much the Neck or gears. The Germans also made many French look-a-likes as well mostly after 1880 and up into the first quarter of the 20th century.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

After discussing the pics of my latest mystery acquisition with two prominent NY Luthiers, both of them independently agree that this is a 19th century Neapolitan Bass. I also asked if it could possibly be Czech, German or Bohemian like some less informed people suspected from looking at a some poorly taken pics. Once again they both believe it is Italian and most likely Neapolitan.

The factors that point to 19th century Naples are the classic FFs, the long Scroll/pegbox with the grade of the Scroll wood (which seems to have a few original glue joints showing it was pieced together length and width-wise), the slab cut Rib wood and the rift cut Top wood. The cut shoulders displaying the current upper bout shape was not discovered till now as well as the wood traits mentioned when carefully examined in person at my shop.

I recently learned about another Loveri Bass that has an open peg Box similar to mine and the Luthier that worked on it believed it was most likely original as well.

Here are some pics that helped in the deciding factors I just mentioned;



The FFs and the Scroll were major factors separating it from anything Central European. The style of the wood chosen was also another clue as we almost never see Slab cut wood on Germanic/Czech type Basses nor do we see Scrolls made with multiple pieces for yield. The open Pegbox can mean anything but the fact that it looks original like the other Loveri mentioned shows that this style was used. The wood plates on the cheeks are not original and I doubt the Gear order is either. The Gears though can be original but I would have to destroy the plates to find out as they are glued on the cheeks. The 1873 Carlo Loveri I have was made more Cello shape and cut down to a solo shaped Bass. This one has only been slightly cut at the bouts and then sloped up at the block as the shoulders still have some width to them.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I went out to Jeff Bollbach's yesterday to bring home my Storioni for some concerts as the restoration is currently on hold. Jeff suggested I bring along the new Gamba I just got in to have a good look inside the Bass.

As soon as we put the Bass up on the beck he commented something like 'this is nothing 'but' Italian from what I can see' (as a few people looking at pics suspected Czech). Looking inside the Bass it was obvious by oxidation that the Bass was at least 150 years old if not older (c.1850 of before). In comparing the FFs (Jeff has worked on several Loveri Basses) he commented how similar they are to Loveri but also that they are only similar and not Loveri's hand. Hence, this Bass is not by Loveri and older as well. Jeff also examined the Scroll and said the open back is original (like a Loveri he has worked on) as well as original to the Bass. With the exception to the slight shoulder cut, the Bass is all original.

So, now that I know what it's not, we may never know who the actual maker is. At least I know now that it's a Gagliano School Bass just like Loveri is. That's a good start even if it's all we even find out.

[peterpalmieri]

Thanks for sharing this wealth of knowledge, I find it very interesting. Could one of you suggest a few good books to start out with to learn more about the history on luthiers and what comprises a style or region of bass.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

Thanks for sharing this wealth of knowledge, I find it very interesting. Could one of you suggest a few good books to start out with to learn more about the history on luthiers and what comprises a style or region of bass.

Well, this is a difficult subject. On this latest Gamba Bass of mine, 6 different Luthiers looked at pictures of it and said either Czech, Bohemian or Central Europe which essentially means the same.

Then, one of the 6 refuted his first opinion and said it might be Neapolitan! Why? Well, Gamba Basses often look similar just like English Gambas and German Gambas of similar design. Why is that? Because they are all copying the same idea essentially.

I saw the Bass as Italian the first time I laid eyes on a picture of it. Also, it was represented as Italian as well but the pictures and region claimed did not match up in my mind. Jeff saw the Bass in person after seeing the pics and had about the same opinion that I did. Arnold will see it in a few weeks as well in person after only seeing pics to date.

On the Books, there is only one re-published Book on Basses available and it's in an unedited form and with errors on many Basses as to who made them. This is the Elgar Book. The book collection I have is mainly Violin Books with an occasional mention of a Bass but rarely any descriptive text that would help anyone ID something. The Books mainly discuss the makers period and a bit on his work as it pertains to the Violin. Very little of that information is transferable to Basses.

Seeing a lot of Basses and comparing them is the only way. It's like 'concentration', mix and match. Also, Basses have often been altered so much it becomes even more difficult. Finding a Bass over 150 years old with all of its original parts including the Scroll, Varnish and Shoulders is a rarity today.

The Books help to learn about makers' lives if the text is accurate but not to ID basses or even Violins for that matter.