Gliga GEMS bass?

[kamakiriad7]

Hey everyone,

I'm wondering if anyone has any experiences with playing a Gliga "student" bass (The Gems line). I'm a semi-professional bassist in St. John's and am pretty fluent on jazz upright, but I've just been accepted into MUN music school for classical. And I need to get myself a reasonably good instrument.

Unfortunately, being situated in Newfoundland, there aren't many options for trying out basses before buying them. There's hardly any market at all. We have a Long & McQuade here, however, at which I've recently become employed. In checking out what manufacturers they deal with, I've noticed that they carry Engelhardt, Gliga, Heinrich Gill, Kolstein, and a couple of others.

My price range is between $2700 and $3500 or so. I was originally looking at an Engelhardt ES-1, but am really drawn towards the Gliga Gems bass, especially with what I've read about them on this board. The problem I have here is, whatever I decide on getting, I have to make a downpayment first - there is no trial option.

Can anyone provide me with a recommendation? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[GerardSamija]

I'm not much of a bassist, but the bassists I've worked for who own Gliga student basses (bought new for between $2500 and $4500) tend to all share a similar opinion. The basses are a bit stiff, perhaps muffled, even with optimised setups. They're constructed somewhat heavily - everyone notices and mentions this on picking one up for the first time. The glue used seems always to be a synthetic, though in the past couple of years there seems to be less squeeze-out and dripping inside so it's harder to notice this. White glue means more difficult/expensive repair work should an accident befall your bass. Bracing on the flat backs is heavy, and at least many of the models I've worked on have had this bracing pressed hard against the inner lining/ribs, meaning shrinkage is going to cause seams to open years down the road. I made a special thin and long gouge for trimming the centre brace ends about 1/8" shorter, but cannot reach the other braces through the f-holes.

Other than that, they're well designed for ease of play with a very long C-bout area, not too wide there, and a tapered upper bout so as to help a bit with leaning in to upper registers. With a bow, and after some work on fingerboard and bridge and soundpost fitting, they're really not bad for the money. It just seems they'll take a lot of years to warm up and get louder, if they do at all.

[bassface747]

Is that stiffness common with new carved Romanian basses? I don't own a Gliga, but mine was made in Reghin as well. I had no end of troubles with mine when I first got it, but after putting on lower tension strings (solo strings on G and D, actually) and adjusting the set-up, it sings beautifully. I do notice that my bass is quite a bit heavier than other carved basses that I play.

[GerardSamija]

Sorry, but my experience of Romanian basses is limited to Gliga's products. I've worked on Gliga basses and violins, and on the lower quality (though not by much really) Genial labeled instruments which are also Gliga-made. Nothing else from that country has made it out this far it seems, and so I cannot comment on whether or not this is a national trend.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I have seen actually 4 grades of Romanian Basses. Laminated, Hybrid, Carved and fancy Carved. These Romanians are real Luthiers. On the lower end Basses, the interior Lining and Block work looks a bit 'hurried'. In the Carved models at least, they look correct as they should be.

I don't exactly know what a Gem model is from Gliga but unless I missed it above, please describe the Bass in detail as far as Laminated, Hybrid or fully carved. The Carved models I have seen in person had Carved Backs as well but all shops I think offer them with a Flatback for a lower price.

[drurb]

None of Ken's claims as to origin and manufacture of these basses seems to contradict or even address any of the characterizations offered by GerardSamija. Those characterizations seem to be spot on. All of the information offered here actually seems quite consistent. As I have posted here before, some of the Calin Wulturs could be nice basses.

[kamakiriad7]

Thanks so much for all of your input. I should have included more information in my first post... in any event, I'm not sure if the bass is a hybrid or laminated. It is a flat-back.

Here's the link to the main page: http://gliga.ro/Gliga_N/pag9.html

And a few photos: http://gliga.ro/Gliga_N/enlarge_St2.4.2.html

The bass is 3rd on the price scale for what they offer. Their lines are (1) Handmade Master Instruments, (2) 'Gama' Handmade Professional Instruments, (3) 'Gems' Handmade Student Instruments, and (4) 'Genial' Handmade School Instruments.

After reading your opinions, I'm thinking about maybe going with another company... have any of you had experiences with Kolstein or Heinrich Gill? Or for that matter, Upton? I was looking carefully at this yesterday: http://www.uptonbass.com/UB-Standard...d-Double-Bass/

[uprightben]

I have a Gliga Gems 1 fully carved roundback from 2001, and my opinion of it is very positive. While i agree that they are a bit heavy i have to say that the comment about synthetic glue is not consistent with my experience, I have had the finger board off (because I dropped the thing) and had seams open up and my luthier has never had a problem cleaning up the old glue and all repairs have held just fine. Repairs for me have actually been cheaper than normal because my bass is much more well built than the kind of stuff that the local grassers seem to prefer, and my luthier knows that my bass isn't going to turn into an endless project. Quite frankly, I find the claim that Gliga uses white glue on thier basses hard to believe. As far as set up goes, I saved a couple bucks by asking that my bass come without any set up, I believe that any bass you get by mail is going to need a complete set up.

As far as tone, my bass doesn't have the ground shaking low end rumble of a '50s kay, which I consider a good thing. With a bow, the thing screams. I guess it is more of a growler than a thumper. I have always recieved great comments on my tone, especially in jazz settings. It also amplifies very well, I can play with stage volumes as loud as I like, and as long as I eq carefully, feedback is not a problem with my bass. It did take a couple of years to open up, and I find that it is a bit tight, which i address by using lower tension strings.

I hope the OP realises that the only person on this thread who's comments are negative is GerrardSamija. I think if one reads some of Ken Smith's past posts you will realise that if he thought Gliga was crap, he would come out and say that. I realise my post sounds defensive, but I love my bass and feel like a member of my family is being slighted here.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by uprightben

I believe that any bass you get by mail is going to need a complete set up.

Definitely not so. There are several fine shops that can ship you a bass that is beautifully set up.

[Jake deVilliers]

An interesting thread, especially because I have a Genial in my bass clamp/bench right now and I'm trying to help it find its voice.

The Gligas sold at Long & McQuade in Vancouver are the 'Genial' line, as are most of the basses at Prussin Music. They are much more nicely finished than the Romas I got from Ideal Music but they are noticeably heavier and less open sounding

The distance from bridge to saddle is 22", 2" longer than a Kay, and this seems to make the strings very tight and stiff under the hands. I think it wants a much lighter set of strings. If I'm wrong, I'll let you know.

I'll agree with Gerard that they are much heavier than they need to be, particularly the backs, but disagree on the glue. The glue used on the nut on my present patient is most definitely hide glue - I'm not popping off the top just to see if they used it all over!

Can't you rent one from your store for a couple of months to see how it works for you?

[GerardSamija]

Originally Posted by uprightben

I have a Gliga Gems 1 fully carved roundback from 2001, and my opinion of it is very positive. ...[SNIP]... Quite frankly, I find the claim that Gliga uses white glue on thier basses hard to believe.

For starters, my apologies for stepping on any toes. It was furthest from my intention to make anyone feel badly about their instrument of choice. I have only handled about 7 or 8 Gliga/Genial basses (mostly not Genial) and so my experience of them is modest. All the instruments I have set up from this company have either been sold by Long&McQuade or Prussin and then come to me for work, or have come from Long&McQuade before sale for setup... though the latter hasn't happened lately, apparently because Jake is getting that work. ;-) No worries here on that score. I generally try to avoid working for dealers directly.

The 'claim' that Gliga uses white glue is not a claim, it's simple observation. I did not specify where I had seen the white glue, and perhaps that was a mistake. So to clarify; I did not mention white glue for attaching fingerboards or nuts, and I have seen no evidence to indicate that this has been used by Gliga in those places. I cannot say for certain whether or not white glue has been used for gluing backs and bellies to ribs/linings, as there has been squeezed out glue showing in only two cases, both at least 5 years ago now. In more recent basses I've seen surprisingly neat gluing on the inside, parts of it that can be seen through the f-holes that is. The only traces of glue showing have been at upper and lower blocks, between linings and ribs, and at the ends of the back braces. That last has been most abundant, and from that came my first notice of this glue being used. All subsequent Gliga instruments I've seen have shared it, except the two cases where the braces were not pressed directly against the rib linings. In those cases the evidence of glue were so scant as not to be readable, and so I've been thinking that perhaps Gliga has abandoned white glue in this line.

When I refer to 'observation' I do not mean only looking; I have, as stated earlier, used a long, thin gouge to cut away about 1/8" of the ends of these large centre braces down to the back, at least to the glue layer holding the brace to the back. That's because every one of these flat-backed basses (no one has yet brought me a carved-back Gliga) until this past year or so has had the brace very tight against the lining, and as any experienced luthier will surely attest, shrinkage of the flat back plate against the ends of such braces always causes a problem of recurring loose seams. This can result in a series of sloppy repairs, as it's easy for players to shove as bit of glue in there... and in the longer term one finds it harder and harder to repair in this lower C-bout area as a result. I've seen finishing nails used, epoxy fillers, all manner of hardware store glue, and in one case a few small screws. Easier by far to simply shorten the brace ends slightly. Of course the f-holes must be carefully padded to avoid damage in this awkward carving operation, but it's not that hard to do it well.

Now, when removing this spruce from the brace ends, I have seen some squeezed-out glue, and have also had to contend with the glue underneath while trying to pry out the last chips of spruce. The chips have proven very, very stubborn, as they move out of the way, then spring back into place. The glue struck me on first encountering it as being like old chewing gum stuck to a shoe, only much stronger. I had to remove the belly of a 'tropicalized' bass from Venezuela (via Trinidad about 30 years ago and then Toronto briefly) fairly recently, where the last repairer had used similar glue. The outer and inner linings on the ribs, and the ribs themselves for that matter, were very thick, totalling about 1/2" on average. The white glue used did not fracture, and so I found myself for about 2 days very gradually cutting through this with the belly removal knife, moving ever so slowly, though with a lot of pressure (my hands were very sore by the end!), and managing not to cause any new damage around the edges. By the middle of the second day I was fairly angry with the anonymous repairer... and again reflected on how difficult it would be to remove a Gliga belly should they still be using white glue.

Again, as I said, it does seem in the most recent couple of examples that the glue *might* have changed, but I cannot be certain. The Gliga that I have for sale currently - http://www.luthier.ca/consignment/bc/bc_bass.html - is typical of those I've seen, this one purchased about 3 years ago from Long&McQuade for $4500. It's in showroom-new condition, and looks to be very similar to the one linked to by the OP. The label reads:

Strumenti musicali eseguiti
nelle officine Gliga
Fecit Anno 794-09-2003

That's all. No mention of 'Gems' nor 'Genial' nor any other qualifier. From my experience with Gliga violins, including Genial-labelled instruments, this bass is nowhere near the quality of the $1500/$2000 violins, where the varnish is far more subtly applied and beautiful and the woodwork and fittings are of much finer quality. Still, it's a decent enough bass, and of the Gliga basses I've handled it is the single best-sounding example, both pizz and arco. I'd estimate its output as about 20% better than average for this line. Luck of the draw I guess, sort of like the 400 monkeys at typewriters thing, eventually banging out some Shakespeare. Of course Gliga is not populated by monkeys, but what I'm saying is that given consistent production methods with the variations in material characteristics, some proportion of the instruments will 'luck out' and others will be duds. I've encountered a couple of duds, and while managing to bring out a bit more sound, they were very stubborn. Sort of like a lot of old Hofner instruments - too much wood.

Originally Posted by uprightben

I hope the OP realises that the only person on this thread who's comments are negative is GerrardSamija [sic]. I think if one reads some of Ken Smith's past posts you will realise that if he thought Gliga was crap, he would come out and say that. I realise my post sounds defensive, but I love my bass and feel like a member of my family is being slighted here.

Again, my apologies for offending you. I don't know your bass, and have no doubt from your testimony here that it sounds very good. I'd hesitate to make generalisations about a brand of basses from the perspective of having used just one or two, hence my statements are coming from working with a few more. I'd not use a word like 'crap' to describe the line generally, but as I said, there are duds.

When bassists bring me these instruments before purchase and ask my opinion - something I encourage for students, and for which there is never a charge - I say what I know. Then I offer my opinion in summing up, which is to say that if the player is looking for an heirloom investment sort of thing, look elsewhere, but for the money these instruments seem to be an okay compromise. As with the Speyer basses from Korea, for somewhat less money, these are good so long as they last, which may prove to be quite a long time. In all likelihood the carved-back model you own is of superior workmanship. Never having seen such a model I know absolutely nothing about it save what you've said here, not even what it looks like. Could well be from a different series, using a different set of techniques and even a different set of workers at the massive Gliga works.

Jake; have you ever shortened a back brace in one of these Gliga basses? Or do you disagree with this approach? I'm wondering if you have any experience of the insides of these basses upon which to base your refutation of my white glue experience?

[Jake deVilliers]

"Jake; have you ever shortened a back brace in one of these Gliga basses? Or do you disagree with this approach? I'm wondering if you have any experience of the insides of these basses upon which to base your refutation of my white glue experience?"

I haven't shortened a back brace but I think its a great idea - carving off half of the brace would also be a good idea in my opinion.

And no Gerard, I didn't 'refute' your glue experience - I merely stated the one thing I know to be true about the glue on this bass. Perhaps like ben, you're over-reacting to a specific comment.

You can have L & M's Gliga's etc any time!

[GerardSamija]

If it seems I'm over-reacting, well, most of my response was directed at the other poster who owns a Gliga carved-back bass, an effort at assuaging any misunderstandings there. Your comments in part seemed to reinforce his criticisms, so you got lumped in. Guess I could have made an even longer posting (ACK! many a Pocket PC forum member in the past 8 years has regretted triggering one of those from me!) to make each and every point unequivocally clear, but frankly I have too much work to do before my wife leaves for work today and leaves me with our 2-year-old. He's not very tolerant of me spending any time on the computer, and that's as should be.

Now, back to working on a C-extension and then a very weird broken brace in an Ovation guitar, and if I can squeeze it in before 2, a bit of fiddle seam gluing.

And no, thanks. Keep all the dealer bass work you can handle, really. I've never had good experiences with dealers. Neutral, sure, but find that bassists themselves are better to do work for. Great bunch of people. Colin at L&McQ is a nice guy, an exception really, but generally speaking my preference is to stay away.

[kamakiriad7]

Well guys, thanks for all of your input. I greatly appreciate it. I'll let you all know when I decide on the bass!

[AMJBASS]

I would definitely recommend looking into the Christopher carved instruments as well. The carved flat back (DB401) is an outstanding bass for the money. I have one right now, and it is a great sounding bass. A TON of acoustic volume, and a really deep full sound. Check them out at www.violins.on.ca
Leif is a great guy to deal with.

[GerardSamija]

To follow up on earlier an earlier comment I made about 'GEMS' from Gliga; I've got a Long&McQuade rental here to be fitted with a temporary bridge for use with gut strings, and it happens to have the L&McQ shop tags still on the tuners. The smallest of these, for internal shop use, says it's a 3/4 size of 'Quality: GEMS' and colour '5' (the basic Gliga orange). The price sticker says $3295. It's about in the middle of the range of what I've seen so far from Gliga, with somewhat wobbly spruce but of decent growth, fairly interesting flame in the maple, decent enough workmanship for a student bass.

So it seems perhaps I've been seeing the GEMS basses all along, at least the ones not labelled 'Genial', so whatever I've said about Gliga basses would seem to apply to your case with the GEMS.

And a fair piece of what I had to say had to do with white glue in Gliga basses. Well, here's some white glue for all to see, freshly photographed at the end of the soundpost brace and back/bottom block joint of Gliga bass serial # B124784





I'd say that's fairly clear. Never yet have I seen hide glue a) sit in a thick droplet (hide glue shrinks a lot on drying, tends to be rather flat if in drops) or b) of a milky white colour such as seen here. There's some bridging a small gap between the lower edge of the top block and the upper back plate as well, but it was too hard to photograph up there.

As an aside - the obvious and somewhat rough end trimming on that mid-brace isn't mine. The other end of the brace presses quite firmly against the linings of the other C-bout, apparently overlooked. Looks like the glue went in after the trimming on this end, so it's something they did at the factory - in this case labelled as being 2005. I'd been trimming a few of them already by then, but of course have no idea if work got back to them from L&McQ or if they figured it out for themselves. I tend to leave about twice that much gap and to get it rather more smoothly following the contour of the lining.

So until someone shows me proof that Gliga has stopped using white glue, I'm going to carry on giving the same cautionary advice to potential buyers, that these instruments are likely to cause considerable problems should they ever need to be taken apart for repairs. There's also the chance that Gliga stopped using white glue after 2005, or that the next model up (sold here typically for $4000 now, sometimes a bit more) is done with hide glue, at least sometimes... but the one I have in the other room for sale is white glue, and that sold for over $4000...