Good buy on a Kay?

tehbassist · #1 07-26-2010, 10:05 PM

Ok so I've been look at getting my hands on my first OWN DB, and a friend at the local music store put me in contact with a widow who is selling her deceased husband's old music equipment.

Among this gear being a Kay double bass. I was given a picture and a sort of transcription of the label in the f hole which has a circled letter K and says.

Kay Swing Master; Model:18-6 Slap; Ser.# 1242

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I've played a few Kays before and thought they sounded fairly good, so my two question's are: What can you guys tell me about the history of this model and instrument form the model and serial number, and provided that it plays good when I go to check it out how much would a "reasonable offer" run me?

tomshepp · #2 07-27-2010, 12:23 AM

http://www.kaybass.com/

Can't tell what it's worth. You should have the bass checked by a qualified luthier. The local market value also matters with these.

tehbassist · #3 07-27-2010, 06:44 AM

Sorry I should have mentioned that because of my semi-rural, Midwestern location a trip to a luthier is really not a possibility for a bass I don't own yet.

I'm not looking for exact numbers I just don't want to pay to much and end up ripping my self off by high-balling an offer.

drurb · #4 07-27-2010, 06:51 AM

If you can't get to a luthier, then find an experienced DB player to go with you to check out the bass. Here are some numbers. In fine condition, the market price could be as high as $2500-$3000 or so. If there are problems, and there are some fairly common ones that can plague Kays, it could be worth $250-$300. A little picture on the internet won't allow anyone to get much closer.

Calling Molly...

MollyKay · #5 07-27-2010, 07:31 AM

If you look at this bass in person I would be interesting in knowing more about it. It indeed looks like a Kay but the model and serial number do not jive with the Kay database. It could be an off shoot of a Kay bass made for Kay-Myer, Kay-Kraft, Selmer, Sears and Roebucks or the other brands that Kay made basses.

What strikes me as being odd is the low serial number and it being advertised as a Kay Swingmaster. With that low of a serial number I don’t think the Swingmaster were introduced to the market in 1937. Read up on your Kay history at Roger Stowers sight, play it, inspect it and then decide what you want to pay for it. There are some screaming deals out there right now.

If this bass is in the hands of a widow you will probably get a good deal if you make a fair offer (be fair as if this was your Grandmother). Also I am aware that these “objects” often times have an emotional attachment that represents the previous owner and their history. I try to be sensitive and caring when I want to acquire a vintage bass from a direct family member knowing it was someone’s pride and joy at one time.

Good luck and let us know how it goes…love that dark chocolate color.

tehbassist · #6 07-27-2010, 09:24 AM

Well first off I agree that the serial number and model number don't quite match anything on the kay website, so I thought that maybe the 18-6 was mistaken for s-6? Which would put it more in that low serial number range, right?

And also thanks for the help so far.

MollyKay · #7 07-27-2010, 10:49 AM

I have no idea where the number 18-6 fits in, that is why I am curious. To my eye and this small picture this looks like an S-1 or S-8. When looking at the bass the serial number should reflect the year of manufacture, the model number should relate to the shape and color of the bass. If it is a true Swingmaster it will have purfling bound FF holes, carved factory scroll and a ebony horse shoe at the button on the back of the neck. Let us know what you discover. Regardless of its pedigree it could be ready great bass…by Kay standards of course.

MR PC · #8 07-27-2010, 02:10 PM

The bass looks like it may have been a blonde that was over sprayed at some point....and could that be an ebony board? Nice bass. Buy it.

Steve Swan · #9 07-27-2010, 06:47 PM

I agree with Molly that "S-8" seems most likely as the model designation.

tehbassist · #10 07-27-2010, 08:55 PM

Well I'm going to check out the bass tomorrow, I just had a pleasant conversation with the seller and I now understand that this bass belonged to her father, who had owned it when he was a kid.

So I in the picture I have I believe I can make out purfling around the f holes. Then aside from the correct model and serial number and the ebony horseshoe on the button what else should I be on the look out for, barring the existence of any massive structural damage? I'm by no means an expert, but definitely not a novice so just tell me what to look for.

drurb · #11 07-28-2010, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MR PC

The bass looks like it may have been a blonde that was over sprayed at some point....and could that be an ebony board? Nice bass. Buy it.

I wouldn't recommend buying any bass on the basis of a small picture on the internet especially if one believes it has been "over sprayed." FWIW, I don't see evidence to that effect in the picture nor can I discern that structurally and sound-wise it's a "nice bass." It is pretty, though.

drurb · #12 07-28-2010, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehbassist

I'm by no means an expert, but definitely not a novice so just tell me what to look for.

There are many things to look for that can be spotted by a luthier or someone who is an expert or experienced. Among other things, look for separation of the neck at the heel (a common Kay issue) or evidence of repair at the neck, delamination of the plywood, a loose bass bar (often diagnosed by tapping the top along the length of the bar), cracks at the back where the soundpost sits (does this model have a sound-post patch?). Given what you shared via PM (that I will not reveal here), I think you're barking up the wrong bass.

MollyKay · #13 07-28-2010, 07:33 AM

If the bass does not have the purfling bound FF holes and the ebony horseshoe at the button it is an M-1…which is still good…just not as fancy as a Swingmaster. If the neck is three pieces (1/8” dark wood stringer down the center on the back of the neck) it could be a very early model Kay. Take a flash light so you can look inside the bass for delaminated ply wood or signs of damage from bugs. A bass this old may need a neck reset, it will wiggle when there is no tension on the neck…very common and not a deal breaker at all.

If you are like me, you will know it when you see it if it is for you. Even with a poor set up or rotted strings a bass can speak to you. I will be the first to say not every Kay bass is a great bass. There are some good ones and then there are some great ones.

Best of luck and report back with your findings.

I think there is an echo in here...sorry Drurb!

drurb · #14 07-28-2010, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MollyKay

I think there is an echo in here...sorry Drurb!

Nah, no "sorry"-- just reinforces what they say about great minds.

In any case, when it comes to Kays, I defer to your greater expertise and experience. Just happy that I seem to have gotten it right.

tehbassist · #15 07-28-2010, 04:39 PM

It was an S-6!

And boy was I surprised to see a thin bodied bass!

Other than that the surprises were as follows:

The body was in excellent shape, no cracks, purfling was in good shape, purfling on the f holes was present, the belly was a little bowed in at the bridge, bridge was out of whack, I don't think the tail piece was original because there was no kay script, SERIAL NUMBER WAS CORRECT, no ebony horseshoe, THREE PIECE NECK, the tuners had some cool engraving and the words SWING MASTER on them, bassbar didn't rattle when I tapped along the belly, and the sound post was in place.

The only actually bad news was that the bass had been extensively traveled by her father (an air force colonel) and at one point it looked like the neck had been snapped in two. The neck itself was repaired well but instead of gluing on a new fingerboard it looks like one was screwed on (the things that look like position dots in the picture are actually screws!).

Thats my current report, I have a good memory so if I forgot to mention anything that is important just ask.

MollyKay · #16 07-28-2010, 08:09 PM

Very Cool…I was not familiar with the S-6 model. I have seen other thin model Kay’s. They don’t seem to have the same popularity as the regular size Kay models. At least I was in the ballpark with it being an early bass with the three piece neck. The engraved tuners are cool.

It is safe to say you did not buy it…keep looking. There are lots of choices.

Thanks for the follow up report. This is how we all learn more…we share!

MollyKay · #17 07-29-2010, 05:10 PM

Looky, Looky…I just found this in my bass archives. An original 1945 Kay Swingmaster ad for the S-5 and S-6.

Enjoy

bejoyous · #18 07-29-2010, 08:10 PM

I checked an online currency and inflation calculator and the $275 price tag in 1945 is equivalent to $3336 today.

A new Swingmaster from Lemur is now $2050 and at Gollihur's site is listed at $3075 but it is crossed out and going for $1600.

longfinger · #19 07-29-2010, 09:24 PM

Great read. I love that old ad.

Perhaps the OP could pass all this info along to the widow who's selling the bass so she can know more about what she's selling?

tehbassist · #20 07-29-2010, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longfinger

Great read. I love that old ad.

Perhaps the OP could pass all this info along to the widow who's selling the bass so she can know more about what she's selling?

Yeah, I was going to call her tomorrow and tell her that the bass just wasn't what I was looking for, and then offer her any help she needed in getting the bass sold. Nice lady, fairly nice bass, I'd like to at least help her get a fair deal