Got a pre-war Juzek 5/8, who the heck made it?

[dave88]

Been researching Juzek 5/8's for quite a while in anticipation of this bass. Not much out there. Some claim he never made them (them refers to 5/8's not the fact that he wasn't a bass builder). Here's what I can tell from looking at it:
38" scale
carved
no Wilfer engraving
written in English on label that its Prague (not formerly)
its really freakin' old looking

Did Lang make any carved's for Juzek, or just ply's?
I'll post pics later, when I'm not so hungover.
Thanks,
Dave

Pics, if you download them the resolution is WAY better:
http://simple.myfabrik.com/dpbartok/public/dpbartok/

[dave88]

Yes, those are really old, disgusting gut strings that can't hold tune. Tried to get pic of inside label, but too much of a headache now. Its standard Z label Prague blue and white. Should have moved the mint 64 reverb out of the way, kinda takes away from it.



http://simple.myfabrik.com/dpbartok/...B11EB#layerTop
If you want to see it
Download it for WAY better resolution. I swear its not a virus

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by dave88

Yes, those are really old, disgusting gut strings that can't hold tune. Tried to get pic of inside label, but too much of a headache now. Its standard Z label Prague blue and white. Should have moved the mint 64 reverb out of the way, kinda takes away from it.



http://simple.myfabrik.com/dpbartok/...B11EB#layerTop
If you want to see it
Download it for WAY better resolution. I swear its not a virus

I can't ID a Bass with only one single picture and very dark at that. Make the Picks lighter and get me 10-20 pics of 'everything'. Top, back, ribs, scroll, all angles straight on shots. Nothing fancy, just the 'facts'.

By the way, this is a half sized bass, 1/2 and not a 5/8ths.

All Basses sold and labeled by Juzek were 'bought' by them as contractors from German and Czech shops as well as basses bought here in USA from at least one other wholesaler when they ran short to fill orders.

[dave88]

Sorry Ken, I didn't put that up there thinking you'd be able to identify it with just that one pic, I just wanted to get one up there as soon as possible. In fact, I didn't assume you'd help me out, it's really awesome that you are man, I know you're a busy guy. I'll take tons of pics as soon as I can. But now, off to 5 hours of rehearsals with two different bands then a long gig with a third group. So hungover...I need a day job.

[dave88]

oh, and I'm probably wrong... but I really have the feeling this is a 5/8

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by dave88

oh, and I'm probably wrong... but I really have the feeling this is a 5/8

Do you think the Germans and Czechs had any clue what a 5/8ths size was back then? The 3/4 Basses (whenever that size name was invented) ranged from 41-43" string length. Full sized basses that we now call 7/8ths were 42-44" or so.

I can only assume that 38" string length was made for a small person or a young school student from 4th-8th grade.

The sizes we go by now are quite modern. I would say most basses back then were made as 'regular orchestra size'. Ever rent a car before? What's a full sized Car? It is different today than it was 30 years ago. To sit in the back of a small Car, I need to put my legs in the Trunk!

I own and have owned a few Basses from 39 1/2" String length to 40 3/4" length. Depending on the body size and neck size, they can be called 5/6" or 3/4 depending on who you ask.

Sp.. It's a small Bass, not a 3/4 as we know it today. Period..lol

Busy? Me?.. Yes. I just got back from a Dress Rehearsal for Verdi's Requiem. The Concert is tonight so I need some rest and food and then I have to get ready and drive back to the Gig and do it. I will play on a bass that was made as a 44 1/2 string length (cheated to 44") and I have a solo in this thing as well.

What size is my Bass?

Also, have a look at this link from Germany no doubt. A 1/2 sized bass with 3/9 1/4" string length by their own standards; http://catalogue.kort-basses.com/Dou...7/test_en.html

[dave88]

Rehearsal the day of the gig? My symphony doesn't do that. Wild, man.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Do you think the Germans and Czechs had any clue what a 5/8ths size was back then?

Did they have an idea what 1/2 size was back then? That is, as you point out, size designations are modern and they likely just made a "small" bass. If I understand you correctly then, you are saying it is best to call this small bass a 1/2-size by today's moderns standards. Yes?

[dave88]

http://simple.myfabrik.com/dpbartok/public/dpbartok/

Need to buy a flashlight to photo inside the bass.

Upper Bout width 19", Lower Bout width 24", Height 69", 38" Scale

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by drurb

Did they have an idea what 1/2 size was back then? That is, as you point out, size designations are modern and they likely just made a "small" bass. If I understand you correctly then, you are saying it is best to call this small bass a 1/2-size by today's moderns standards. Yes?

I don't want to get into an argument with you or anyone else about what was perceived a century ago in Europe. What I do know is how Europeans today refer to Bass sizes and it is usually 1/2, 3/4, 4/4 and even 5/4.

I seems to me that when a Bass is a larger 1/2 sized or Smaller 3/4 USA dealers and sellers will often use the term 5/8ths to make it more fractional for which there are no exact sizes for older Basses to begin with. On the other hand, I prefer calling a 5/8ths a smaller 3/4 or 1/2 depending on its overall measurements. We/I usually expect a 5/8ths to be smaller than a standard 3/4 what ever that is.

On the 3/4, I have had many Basses that depending on who you asked were either called a 'full' 3/4 or a 7/8ths!

On the 7/8ths size (whatever that really is) I have and have had Basses that were called 4/4 by some and 7/8ths by others.

While looking at websites in England, Germany and Italy I see little or no mention of 5/8ths or 7/8ths.

With some people afraid the Bass might sound too small, dealers have named many 1/2 sized Basses 5/8ths. When the Bass is a bit larger 7/8ths makes it sound like its better than a 3/4. When the Bass is HUGE, 7/8ths sounds more comfortable than 4/4, that scary size.

I once asked an industry professional who appraises upper end Basses as well Violins etc. (can't mention his name) about a Bass's size. he replied something to the effect "I don't go by that. Those sizes are a modern thing".

Call it what you like for names sake but what is more important is ALL of the measurements and then its relations to these proportions as it relates to playability.

I have bigger Basses that are easier for me to play and get around than Basses measuring smaller on most dimensions.

Size is relative but 'The Size' (as it relates to older Basses) is a matter of opinion.

[drurb]

Thanks. In other words, the answer is "yes." It is best to refer to that bass as a 1/2 size by today's "size" standards. There was never any argument-- just a question.

[robobass]

String length isn't an indicator of size in terms of 3/4, 7/8, etc. The largest modern European instruments are often no more than 41.5" I think the top length is the biggest single marker. Of course this is a cloudy topic, as there are wide and narrow tops, as well as and shallow and deep ribs. Perhaps body volume should be used as the measuring standard. With 3D scanning, we can now calculate this without having to fill up the bass with water.
Robobass

[robobass]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

All Basses sold and labeled by Juzek were 'bought' by them as contractors from German and Czech shops as well as basses bought here in USA from at least one other wholesaler when they ran short to fill orders.

I've really got to challenge this. The basses labeled as made in Prague that I've seen (and owned one) are distinctive enough that I recognize them on sight. They vary in dimensions, but certainly all came out of the same shop. This doesn't go for the postwar German Juzeks, of course. The Prague ones I believe were made between around 1910 and 1940. Some of them can be made to sound pretty good, although they generally seem to lack bottom. I wish I had kept mine.

Robobass

[dave88]

I've really got to challenge this. The basses labeled as made in Prague that I've seen (and owned one) are distinctive enough that I recognize them on sight. They vary in dimensions, but certainly all came out of the same shop. This doesn't go for the postwar German Juzeks, of course. The Prague ones I believe were made between around 1910 and 1940. Some of them can be made to sound pretty good, although they generally seem to lack bottom. I wish I had kept mine.

Robobass

So do you recognize this bass on sight as from that shop? And why or why not? Definitely has the real Violin maker in Prague label.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by dave88

So do you recognize this bass on sight as from that shop? And why or why not? Definitely has the real Violin maker in Prague label.

I must confess that I haven't seen one for many years now, but well, I have to say no. I need to take a look at a few confirmed examples to jog my memory, but, still no. Your bass has been unfortunately badly revarnished, but even so, the wood just doesn't fit my memory. The shape and F-Holes seem about right, but there is something too generic about them. Also, the scroll seems too narrow. Also, hatpegs? Perhaps this bass is authentic, but older than any I have seen. I don't know, but I thought hatpegs went out of fashion before the turn of the 20th Century.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help,
Robobass

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by robobass

I don't know, but I thought hatpegs went out of fashion before the turn of the 20th Century.

I have a ca.1930 "Juzek" (or Wilfer or whatever) with hatpeg tuners. But come to think of it, it doesn't have a label, so that doesn't prove much. (No luthier has ever suggested to me that it's anything other than what it looks like, though.)

[dave88]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Allen

I have a ca.1930 "Juzek" (or Wilfer or whatever) with hatpeg tuners. But come to think of it, it doesn't have a label, so that doesn't prove much. (No luthier has ever suggested to me that it's anything other than what it looks like, though.)

Does it have the Wilfer engraving (not to be confused with the Coco Chanel logo)?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by dave88

Does it have the Wilfer engraving (not to be confused with the Coco Chanel logo)?

I have seen no less than 4 styles of back purfled designs by Wilfer made Basses alone. I have also seen many other older 19th century Bohemian Basses (Pre-Juzek brand/company) with a similar design. Perhaps this is just something that makers put on the Basses as a decoration and not from one particular shop.

I have seen many Juzek imported bass from before WWII (b4 1940) and they do not all look the same to me. At least 2 different Purfled designs as well. On that 1910 date, it has nothing to do with Juzek. The business was not started till about 1920 and I don't know if any basses were 'purchased' in the very beginning either. Yes though, it would be safe to assume that in any given period only one shop at a time supplied the Basses. No though, on the same note, remember that this is an Import company and if the elder Wilfers had 12 Basses that month and Robert Juzek (yes, Robert in NY, not John (Jan)) needed 20, others would be purchased elsewhere. I have also heard about some early model Flatbacks that probably came from a different shop/s as well. Most of these Flatbacks called or labeled Juzek had Hatpeg Tuners and did not have the fancy Back purfled design. Also, I would not be surprised to see Basses that are older than the 1920s either purchased by Juzek for re-sale and labeled by them OR labeled by some Dealer for lack of a Name to call the Bass. I would much rather see a real makers name or the Shop on the Bass than an import company. These Basses without Juzek labels called and sold as Juzeks is reverse thinking in my marketing. If it's a Wilfer made Bass why not just say so rather then the import company whose label isn't even on the darn thing?

Speaking of Purfling designs, what does this one look like?


So, what really is a Juzek Bass? Answer: Any Bass that THEY put their Label on regardless of where it came from.

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by dave88

Does it have the Wilfer engraving (not to be confused with the Coco Chanel logo)?

I think? It's got the engraving under the button just like in the picture Ken posted above.

Ken, I'm unclear on your point--is that bass not a Juzek/Wilfer, but it has the engraving, thereby making the engraving a poor indicator of origin?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Allen

I think? It's got the engraving under the button just like in the picture Ken posted above.

Ken, I'm unclear on your point--is that bass not a Juzek/Wilfer, but it has the engraving, thereby making the engraving a poor indicator of origin?

Ok, here's THAT BASS I posted the Back of above..

I don't think the Juzeks were born yet when this was made.

Like I said earlier, this is a design often seen on Bohemian Basses pre-1900 and later on many German Basses.

Ok, here's another one to look at and take a guess what it is;