Help the New Guy!

[jblond789]

Hey everyone, I'm new to this forum and really just became a member so that I could get some advice. I have been playing electric bass for 7 years and I think it's time to make the switch over to double bass.
Some stuff about my style and influences: I play psychedelic blues in my band The Bluebird Suitcase (www.thebluebirdsuitcase.com), please visit the website and listen to our recordings to get a better idea of my style. My influences include but are not limited to Steppenwolf, The Beatles, The Talking Heads, The Flaming Lips; Medeski, Martin, Wood; The Cure, Johnny Cash and the Tennessee Three, Norah Jones, and The Little Willies.
Anyway, based on my stlye and influences, is there anyone who can give me some advice about what I should bve looking for in an upright?? I have been looking at Upton basses but have no idea of where to go from there. I can only spend about $4000 on a bass and another $1000 for bow and other accessories. Help a guy out.

~jblond789

[Damon Rondeau]

Hey there jblond789 -- welcome aboard and good to have ya.

I'm sure you've checked out the newbie links, right? I'm not trying to put you off, but the topic is vast. Sounds like you've got a decent enough budget to get well-started. Read the newbie stuff then maybe ask some more specific questions.

Don't forget to allocate some dough for a good setup and some lessons. At this stage, those things are probably more important than the actual bass and bow you get.

[Silversorcerer]

There is quite a bit of Upton hype on this forum and quite a few other sellers' products that you might want to check out if you are indeed planning to spend $4K. For a long time I read the reviews of Upton basses, usually from new owners, with just a bit of suspicion:- How could these be so different when they are factory made basses that are simply set up well? Granted, a great set-up makes a huge difference in playability and sound, but there are many shops that perform excellent set-ups.

So I finally saw an Upton bass (you know it was bound to happen sooner or later) hybrid model, one year old a couple of weeks ago. I heard it played amped (rev Solo pickup), unplugged, played it myself in the same room as my 4/4 five string carved Kremona (which actually costs less) and IMO, the frequent statements posted here that these are far better than so many other basses available are jokes. At best these are about average for the price for retail shop DBs. If you get good service and they are close by, Upton might indeed be the best option. But there are many other basses I would look at if I were buying with $4K, and there is just no way in the world that I would ever trade my carved Kremona for an Upton of any sort having finally heard them in the same room with several different players playing both.

I know this post is going to get attacked so I'll tell in advance how the comparison came about:

In the "green room" of a local jazz club hosted open mic, myself, the owner of the Upton (who by the way will never be one of the customers gushing over the quality of that bass on this forum;- he is semi-satisfied at best), and several other bassists were all able to play the Upton and the Kremona. I don't recall any of them thinking the Upton was better in any parameter. In fact they were asking me what I paid for the Kremona and I let them guess. Guesses started at 3x what that bass cost me and went up when I told them "no, guess again." When I told them the price, the uniform response was "No way." It is noteworthy that all of those players had seen the Upton before, knew what it cost, and were familiar with it before comparing it to the Kremona. My bass was in fact the first Kremona these players had seen. Many fine carved European basses are played in that club regularly, and many of the players at that open mic are serious college jazz program students with chops that can blow me off the map. The owner of the Upton is one of those students.

In the price range you are talking about I think you should shop for a fully carved instrument. The Kremona DBs don't cost that much, but they are a great bang for the buck. $4K puts you within reach of something that might be a step up from those in some cases. Like I say, some very experienced players were guessing between $8K-$10K for my instrument. Visit as many bass shops as possible. At the $4K price point, brand or make is not so important. Try to play a lot of basses and maybe take another player with you so you can get out in front of the basses and hear them being played. It's tough to judge the sound of one when you are standing practically on top of it. Also realize that the room contributes to the sound a great deal, so if you narrow it down to a few basses at different shops, try to get the shops to let you do a side by side comparison. If they really want to sell a bass that should be no problem. Finally, I think $4K is too much money to spend on a bass sight unseen. Many entry level basses between $1K and $3K I would think buying sight unseen from a reputable shop with a 7 day approval period is OK. But spending more than that you will come out better even if you have to travel around a little to see some basses.

$1000 can get you a great bow, but if you are totally new to playing arco, you might want to start with a bow under $500. It is hard to judge bow quality without experience and you risk paying too much. Bows and basses vary quite a lot even when the price point is fixed so try a lot of bows if you plan to spend more than $150 or so on one. Other than that you need a bass bag and a good piezo pick-up. Check the amp, mic, and pick-up threads for information on these. There are too many options to discuss that in this thread.

[MingusAmongUs]

ruh-roh... this thread won't be around for long...
I think the prevailing opinion is that the Upton basses are an excellent value, a good bass for the money. Personally if I was doing mostly bow work on a budget, I might go with Upton -- the hybrid was a breeze to bow and sounded great -- but the pizz for me didn't have the volume and presence that I would require without an amp.

Jblond: with your budget and your musical style, you should seriously consider a New Standard bass. It's an expensive ply but IMO the best I've seen. You are not likely to need a fancy carved instrument unless you plan on getting into some serious bowing or virtuoso jazz. The Upton will probably work for you too and save you some dough -- I'm assuming your band is on the louder side, and you'll be "plugged in" most of the time. You have tons of options though. Don't discount the possibility of a used bass - check your local classifieds, craigslist, etc. But I think it comes down to this: either spend less of your money for a bass until you know you really want to pursue the upright, or, if you already know for sure, spring for a better instrument with your whole budget, and plan on having it for a long long time. And +1 to Damon's post -- save some of the dough for a teacher. Electric and upright have similar functions but they are very different instruments.

[bankerwithabass]

Another factor to consider is that even though Upton may quote 10 to 12 weeks for delivery of their Hybrid basses you can get into a situation that where after waiting 6 weeks or more you find out that the time has been extended to 14 to 18 weeks as did happen to me. I cancelled the order and ate the 15% restocking fee (which I don’t believe I should have had to, but that is another story altogether) because as far as I was concerned 14 to 18 weeks with no absolute definitive date in hand was just too much to bear. I was told that it just takes that much time to make a “hand made” bass. I went to a local luthier/shop and made up the difference in price and restocking fee with a fully carved, “Chinese” made bass that looks and sound fabulous and waited, what, 3 days for it to get it adjusted. And now if anything goes wrong I can just take it back locally and get it fixed. No shipping and no long wait.

So I’m not meaning to disrespect Upton in any way, I’m just trying to point out that buying locally gives you all the advantages and saves you the wait and hassle. You know what the bass feels like, looks like and sounds like on the spot.

[wendell]

For playing out in bars and the general rigors of the road you might want to get a good quality, great sounding plywood bass. If you have $4K, give or take, you really should check out a New Standard Cleveland. Do a Talkbass search to read more than you need to convince you to give them a look.

[drurb]

It's important to note that many of the players who post positive comments about the Uptons are quite experienced themselves. These are, of course, all matters of opinion. It is insulting to refer to the opinions of others as "jokes." I also had the opportunity to play the Upton laminate, the Upton hybrid, and the Upton Professor in the same room as a Kremona. I found the workmanship of the Kremona and its sound to pale in comparison to the Upton hybrid. Okay, so maybe the Kremona I played was not a good exemplar. That's quite possible. Likewise, maybe the Upton that was compared by SS to his Kremona was not a good exemplar. What strings were on it? How was it set up? My point is not to discount anyone's opinion. It is simply to point out that opinions differ among well-seasoned and respectable players with regard to these basses and any other basses for that matter. I have found, as others have, that the Uptons offer a huge bang for the buck. They are, IMO, anything but average for their price. The best advice for someone with a $4k budget is to play all the candidate basses and decide for him/herself. I think we can help the OP best by not disparaging any particular product among those that are "respectable." By that I mean we are excluding CCBs.

[clink]

I have owned an Upton Hybrid Hawkes for a year now and have been satisfied with it. Many compliments have come its way regarding tone and playability. That said, it is a nicely set up Romanian shop bass. Anyone curious enough to Google 'Gliga bass' will find many basses looking almost exactly like the "Upton". I have seen Calin Wulturs sp? offered by Ken Smith as well as other dealers that looked (at least on-line) to be of similar design and value. Comparing my bass side by side to fully carved Romanian basses at KC Strings revealed that they either came from the same shop or were almost exact copies. I doubt the latter. All measurements were almost exactly the same. Both Anton and Misha Krutz told me that KC Strings could order the hybrid version, finish it in their shop and offer it at a similar price to the Upton. I wish I had known that a year ago.

I think that Upton offers nice basses at very fair prices. They also do a great job of marketing them. Based on the postings on TB it has been my experience that many, if not most of their buyers are relatively new to the DB world. If that is true, by definition, they may not have the experience to separate the marketing 'sizzle' from the 'steak'.


Given your budget, I would advise you to visit a large shop and play a lot of basses before you buy. If you choose to buy from Upton you will get a fair deal on a nice bass but it may not be the best bass for you.

[mesmithnm]

OK, my two cents worth (and worth every penny ). If you are anywhere near a major metropolitan area (your profile doesn't say), get thine ass to one of the reputable local shops or luthiers. If you need advice about who to see in your area there are lots of people here that can help. I would only recommend mail-ordering a double bass if you are truly remote and absolutely cannot go see and hear the instrument in person. If Upton is your local shop, go see them. Likewise, if you're anywhere near Arnold, you should go see and hear the New Standards. Other locations have other good shops (in my neck of the woods, it's Robertson's). The point is - we could argue for days if my KremUpton is better than your NewShen - doesn't mean much. Go see the guys that know basses and then let your ears decide.

[drurb]

I have no idea in which European shop the Upton basses were made. I do know that the design of the basses that they have been selling most recently, right down to the exact placement of the bass bar, was and is theirs and theirs alone. Look here. What they have been importing are not simply shop basses that are available to anyone else. I don't doubt that others may have tried to copy their design but I have yet to see a bass from any other source that is of that design. I assure you that KC Strings could not and cannot order the hybrid versions of the basses that Upton has been selling.

clink-- is your hybrid one of the new Upton pattern that they are selling now?

As it turns out, this is all moot because Upton has been saying for some time that they will very soon be building all of their basses from lumber to finished product right here in the US.

By the way, I judged the European Upton Professor to be substantially superior to my own Romanian fully-carved bass that is a cousin, if not a brother of the "Calin Wultur" basses. I was extremely impressed with it-- so much so that I ordered one. I'm far from a newbie.

[clink]

KremUptonNewStandard

That's funny.

This may help:
http://www.gollihurmusic.com/luthiers.cfm

[Damon Rondeau]

Gee, it would be nice if this didn't degenerate into a pro/anti Upton thread.

I think if you look in the newbie links you'll see a well-trodden path covering so many of these issues. I think the best possible advice is to get your hands on as many basses as you can and to play them. Hands-off mail order can only be a second best option, in my opinion. I say this as someone who did buy mail order -- and who is very happy with the result -- but who only did so due to geographic necessity. My city contains very, very few basses and the next biggest cities closest to me are Minn/St. Paul at 8 hours down the road, and Calgary, 14 hours away. I rolled the dice and went mail order. I didn't crap out, but I could have.

[clink]

Drurb,
I have no reason to doubt that when ordering a bass in the quantities that Upton does, there is the ability to have them made with certain specifications. The bassbar size and exact location may be examples. I don't know. It was pointed out to me that the bassbar in my bass is thinner than in the KC Strings basses. This may affect tension, bass response or other things. I simply don't know.
FWIW, I stated that the basses measured ALMOST exactly the same. Were I to order a Romanian hybrid (lam back, solid ribs and top) from KC String I would expect it to vary somewhat, but be more similar than different.
My bass was purchased just over a year ago. If it isn't the same design they are currently selling it is very, very close.
My point is not to trash Upton in any way but to try to put things in perspective.

For example, here is a bass than looks similar.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ormoHybrid.htm

There are many, many basses available in the OP's price range. Upton being only one, and still a good option. Nothing that I have or will say should reflect that I don't think highly of the basses Upton sells.

[drurb]

clink--

Thanks. I only meant to point out that Upton's design is proprietary so far as the shop manufacturing it is concerned. Others are, of course, free to copy. I wanted to make clear to those who might be unfamiliar that Upton is not simply ordering a quantity of some "model" offered by a European shop. Rather, they designed their bass from the ground up and had it manufactured to their specs. I remember when the design was nothing but cardboard. The link to the Panormo that you provided is most interesting. That link is an example of bass made by a shop that is cashing in on the popularity of "wide-shouldered" basses that Upton has been selling. Hey, that's their right. What's especially interesting is that the "Panormo" model from that shop has changed over the past year or so. It didn't have those shoulders before! So far as I know, that Panormo is a fine bass. As another example, notice that the Gliga basses now have f-holes like the Uptons. They never did before. Now, no one "owns" a shape but it's interesting to see who is following whom. Finally, I agree wholeheartedly with you and I even said in my earlier post that the OP should play a bunch of basses and decide for himself.

[Silversorcerer]

I even saw some Romanian basses for sale from one of the big online music stores that were missing the niches in the f-holes just like some of the Upton models. Ken is able to specify quite a bit from his Chinese suppliers and I'm sure Upton is able to specify some things also from the Romanian supplier such as the Lafaro f-hole shape. I was able to specify a few things from Kremona. If you go to Baran's in Decatur and see a bass you like the shape of and a different one with a finish you prefer, he can get you covered both ways with a special order. That kind of flexibility is common when you deal with a supplier that has a healthy relationship with the factories or shops they deal with. It's so common most shops don't bother advertising it.

When a thread starts out with some one mentioning "I have been looking at Upton basses but have no idea of where to go from there.." If you are a member of this forum for more than a month, you can kind of guess what direction the thread is going to go from there. It didn't start with people posting negative comments about Upton. It started with Upton endorsers posting their "opinions" and negative comments about other makers as if they were somehow the only ones that were relevant. Now we have a few more side by side comparisons to go by with other basses that are happening outside of the immediate Upton geography where there are also bass shops that supply good set-ups.

In answer to the question of how the Upton hybrid I tried that was a year old was set up, let's just apply a tiny bit of logic. Uptons (by almost all reports here) supplies a bass with a great set-up. That is supposedly one of the big advantages of getting an Upton. If that is true, why would someone change the set-up within a year of purchase? Only if it wasn't so great, right? Here in Atlanta, they'd take it to Ron Sachs, Tom Thorsen (ASO bassist), Emile Baran, or several other DB luthiers who are all known in Atlanta for great set-ups. Very few people will do what I did with the Kremona, which was carve and fit my own bridge, shave my own fingerboard just a little, and set my own sound post. So it was the Kremona that had what should be the suspect amateur set-up, unless we are willing to believe I can out-do the established shops that do set-ups as a business on my 3rd DB set-up.

The Upton bridge had adjusters on there so a good bit of flexibility was incorporated right there. The Kremona has no adjusters installed. In 3 seasons string height changes less than 1mm. The Upton owner had little interest in playing arco, so there was no reason to make any changes to enhance performance for a particular bowing style. That Upton bass I saw has only been played pizz. The owner doesn't have a bow. Strings on the Upton were one year old Spirocores, 2.5 yr. old Helicore Orchestrals on the Kremona. No one used a bow to play either bass during comparison.

So now it's all just a matter of opinion and personal preference. Right. But before it was "I've seen them side by side, etc., etc., etc.," Well, now about half a dozen Atlanta bassists have seen them side by side, etc., etc., etc. So we move to the hypotheticals. Perhaps it was a bad Uptons (exception to the rule?), perhaps it was a good Kremona (exception to the rule?). Perhaps it was the other way round when someone else had them side by side? If one is plausible so is the other. It's all just a matter of opinion now. And opinions differ. Who would have ever imagined that?

[tucson_zac]

Jblond -

With the influences you listed, and the assumption that you'll be playing fairly loud, always amped, and traveling the club scene, you might also look into (cover your ears, classical folks) King Doublebass. They really cater to the rockabilly scene, but that might fit what you want.

-z.

[clink]

Originally Posted by drurb

Upton's design is proprietary so far as the shop manufacturing it is concerned. Others are, of course, free to copy.

http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2644.htm

As long as people have been making basses, there have been copies......... lol.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by clink

http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2644.htm

As long as people have been making basses, there have been copies......... lol.

Indeed. We all know that Upton didn't invent the Hawkes pattern (neither did Hawkes). The specific design they are using now doesn't seem to have been copied----yet.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

I even saw some Romanian basses for sale from one of the big online music stores that were missing the niches in the f-holes just like some of the Upton models. Ken is able to specify quite a bit from his Chinese suppliers and I'm sure Upton is able to specify some things also from the Romanian supplier such as the Lafaro f-hole shape. I was able to specify a few things from Kremona.

Well Upton specified more than a few things. They specified the entire pattern and many of the methods of construction from the outset. That's quite different than tweaking an existing mass-produced model.

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

In answer to the question of how the Upton hybrid I tried that was a year old was set up, let's just apply a tiny bit of logic. Uptons (by almost all reports here) supplies a bass with a great set-up. That is supposedly one of the big advantages of getting an Upton. If that is true, why would someone change the set-up within a year of purchase? Only if it wasn't so great, right?

Wrong. You certainly applied only a tiny bit of logic. When I asked how it was set up, I was asking about string height, etc. There are many Upton customers who ask for basses to be set up with values of the parameters that are nowhere near my liking.

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

So now it's all just a matter of opinion and personal preference. Right. But before it was "I've seen them side by side, etc., etc., etc.,"

It was always a matter of opinion. I stated my opinion before and it hasn't changed. The Kremona I played was, IMO, garbage compared to the Upton along many dimensions. There are no absolutes in these matters. When I see wood-filler in the joints, I call that "poorly made." Gee, but that's just my opinion. That doesn't prevent me from allowing that others may have different opinions. The difference is that I didn't criticize others for stating theirs. I didn't call your opinions "jokes."

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Well, now about half a dozen Atlanta bassists have seen them side by side, etc., etc., etc. So we move to the hypotheticals. Perhaps it was a bad Uptons (exception to the rule?), perhaps it was a good Kremona (exception to the rule?). Perhaps it was the other way round when someone else had them side by side? If one is plausible so is the other. It's all just a matter of opinion now. And opinions differ. Who would have ever imagined that?

So if I were to disparage others as you have, you would criticize me. What I have stated is that different players will have different opinions. Now, you criticize me for that. I allow for the possibility that the Kremona I played may not have been representative. Again, you criticize. You have stated your experience and I have stated mine. Based on the construction of the Kremona I saw and played and based on its sound, I found it to be an inferior instrument. That's my opinion.

Take a good look. The OP mentioned Upton and you jumped right in calling into question the opinions of others and pushing your Kremona agenda. I came back saying that the opposing opinions held by myself and others (including quite seasoned players) are quite valid. I suggested that the OP play a number of different basses in his price range and decide for himself. To your credit, you suggested the same.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I think we've heard enough in this thread about pro/anti Upton rants. David, you heard one Upton bass, and didn't care for it. Cool. Did it have the same kind of strings as your bass? Was the string height comparable? If those two things weren't similar or better, the rest is kind of apples and oranges.

I made that same mistake with an old King moretone once. A kid shows up at the Aebersold camps with an old King bass that he's only been playing for about a year. He's got Obligatos on it, and the string height was such that you *might* have been able to get a business card between the strings and the fingerboard if you worked at it. Needless to say, the bass sounded like crap even when Rufus played it. Shortly thereafter, I made a post here on TB about King basses in general based on my experience with trying to pull a sound out of this kid's bass. Flash forward one year: the same kid comes back with the same bass, only now he's got a jazz teacher who's gotten him to put a set of Spiro reds on the bass and get it set up with adjusters on the bridge, so now the string height is a more normal 6mm (G) to 9mm (E). And that very sound bass sings like the proverbial fat lady at the opera...in a good way.

D'oh!

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with posting opinions about basses we've played - that's kinda what TB is here for, innit? I just hope everyone reading these impressions keeps in mind that for the most part, you're reading the impressions of someone you've never met relating their subjective opinions. As DONOSAUR is fond of saying, "Res Ipsa Loquitur", and what not.

One last word about the whole Upton issue: Jeremy and I have been in contact with Gary and Eric at Upton and have offered to review any bass of theirs they'd like to send our way. Gary has said that he'd like to take us up on that when they have an extra bass to spare. Schedules will dictate whether Jeremy and I can do this together or seperately, but the idea would be to play some material on the review bass in question and then play the same material on our own personal basses (in my case, New Standards, and in Jeremy's, old antique bass heaven) with the whole shebang being recorded so that soundclips of the comparison can be posted here on TB. I won't speak for Jeremy further on this, but I'd be happy to review basses in this way (with posted comparison clips) for any makers/retailers who would like to send an instrument this way. I look forward to doing this in order to have some quantifiable soundclips to listen to of some of these basses that newbies are buying sight unseen...buying blind is always frightening.

At any rate, let's please shelf the Upton rants - both pro and con - for the remainder of this thread unless anyone who hasn't already posted wants to weigh in with their experiences with a particular bass. Remember, the OP is really looking for some tips on how to get started, and god knows if he wants more info on Uptons, he can find it with a simple search.

In the meantime, I'd like to repost what is, in my humble opinion, the most useful post in the thread so far:

Originally Posted by mesmithnm

OK, my two cents worth (and worth every penny ). If you are anywhere near a major metropolitan area (your profile doesn't say), get thine ass to one of the reputable local shops or luthiers. If you need advice about who to see in your area there are lots of people here that can help. I would only recommend mail-ordering a double bass if you are truly remote and absolutely cannot go see and hear the instrument in person. If Upton is your local shop, go see them. Likewise, if you're anywhere near Arnold, you should go see and hear the New Standards. Other locations have other good shops (in my neck of the woods, it's Robertson's). The point is - we could argue for days if my KremUpton is better than your NewShen - doesn't mean much. Go see the guys that know basses and then let your ears decide.

That pretty much says it all.