Help us shop for a new double bass

[pedro]

My son is a 3rd year jazz student and turns 21 in April. He has up ‘till now been well served by a very nice 1937 Kay that he bought 7-8 yrs ago. But he feels he needs to move up. I have suggested that he talk with his bass teacher and get some input on what he should be looking for but in the meantime, I thought I’d tap into the collective experience of Talkbass and get some thoughts from you. We’d like to shoot for something of a professional caliber. Remember this is going to be his occupation, and hopefully something that will hold him in good stead in a professional capacity for some time to come.

Any thoughts on new, used, brands, models, features, prices, etc. are much appreciated.

P.S. I didn’t figure this would be a problem because we have a great local Luthier and friend that we figured would be around to advise us about what we should be looking for and where. Unfortunately I’ve discovered he has retired from the biz.
P.S.S. Yes, I accept that I'm so uninformed that this may be beyond the scope of this forum but its worth a try.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

"New, used, brands, models, features, prices, etc." do not really apply that much in the professional world.

First off, what is your budget?

Second, does he need a Bass with Orchestra capabilities? If so, that can make the price go much higher.

Basses are very individual as are the players. Basses are for sale all over the world, not just locally. I have myself brought in 3 Basses from Europe in the last few years in my hunt for my dream Bass. I sold two of them and have the first one I brought in. It happens to be one of my favorites within the collection of Basses I have.

Take your time and get a good education on Basses before spending any money. He is in school now and has a Bass so time is on your side.

One thing of important note. Basses are easy to buy regardless of the price being 5k or 500k. Yes, a Bass can hit the half mil. mark. Not many but they do exist. Selling a Bass you don't like after purchasing may not be as easy as it was buying it so be very sure before you buy that you know what you or he wants. They say that hindsight is 20/20. Hopefully you wont have to look back at hasty mistakes made in purchasing.

[drurb]

I suggest that you start right here. There's a wealth of information there. I'll assume that you are looking to buy a fully carved bass. Yes? What is your budget? On what type of music will your son be focusing? In what type of venues will he be playing? The answers to these questions will help folks here guide you. I'm sure someone will chime in with what are good luthiers to visit in your area. Especially if you are talking serious money here, it's important for your son to play as many candidate basses as possible so that he can find the right "fit."

Edit: Ken's post wasn't there when I began my reply. Scary-- he and I seem to be on the same channel.

[pedro]

Thanks for playing Ken.

1. Orchestral capabilities? Hmmm don't know. He doesn't seem interested in orchestral playing, although he has taken years of classical music and has played in orchestra's before. Lets do a with and without scenario.

2. Budget? I don't know - as I said, we're looking for professional calliber. What's your best guess as to a price range for a professional level bass that's a significant step up from where he's at now?

Are the sellers whose inventory we should be check out?

One thing of important note. Basses are easy to buy regardless of the price being 5k or 500k. Yes, a Bass can hit the half mil. mark. Not many but they do exist. Selling a Bass you don't like after purchasing may not be as easy as it was buying it so be very sure before you buy that you know what you or he wants. They say that hindsight is 20/20. Hopefully you wont have to look back at hasty mistakes made in purchasing.

Good advice. Thanks.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by pedro

Thanks for playing Ken.

1. Orchestral capabilities? Hmmm don't know. He doesn't seem interested in orchestral playing, although he has taken years of classical music and has played in orchestra's before. Lets do a with and without scenario.

2. Budget? I don't know - as I said, we're looking for professional calliber. What's your best guess as to a price range for a professional level bass that's a significant step up from where he's at now?

Are the sellers whose inventory we should be check out?



Good advice. Thanks.

It would really help if you were much more specific. So far, you have defined a range between about $3000 and $300,000. One player's idea of professional caliber is not necessarily another's. It depends upon for what the bass is to be used. As Ken points out, a bass that is professional caliber with "orchestral capabilities" will cost far more than one that is to be used primarily for other types of music. If professional orchestra playing is not going to be the main gig, then there are many basses that will still do well in an orchestral setting although they might not be what you'd call prototypical orchestral basses. For example, for $10,000 or so, one could buy a very fine bass for jazz, etc. that might work well in an orchestra. That's just one example. Budget $20,000 and now you'll end up with a better one. You can also be a very successful professional gigging jazz (or other) player with a bass costing between $4000 and $10,000. Some pros play basses that cost less than that. So, help us help you.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Ok.. for Jazz only, the top prices are from 20-25k usually unless a guy wants to use a 300k Bass and play just Jazz on it. For orchestra players, the 20-25k is usually the starting point. Professional Basses are mostly old English and Italian with some French and German mixed in there unless... You want to buy NEW.

There are some GREAT new makers out there today. The ones that I like best from what I have played have been Arnold Schnitzer and Jeff Bollbach. Jeff is working on #5 and I have heard #2 and owned its near twin #4 for awhile. He is just too busy to make much. Arnold on the other hand has an assistant in the shop for the repair business and can make a Bass or two or three in a year depending on his work load. There are other makers out there as well. Some are fairly good and some, not as good for my money. Hatchez is about the best in USA but his list is long and his prices the highest.

For Jazz you can do well with older German/Czech Basses that just don't cut it for orchestra work so they sell for much lest. Ofter under 10k and that's for a 50-100+ year old Bass. They make for 'ok' student Orchestra basses but can be great Jazz basses if set up for it.

Be clear on what you can spend and work from there. 5k or under is either a student grade bass, Romanian, Chinese or an older Bass in need of much repair year round. Stay away from basses that have 'terminal' problems. Get 2nd and 3rd opinions when you can and not from friends of the seller either.

The members here at TB have done well with the thumbs up n down for the most part. The down side is that there are many beginners out here and thumbs come up too often on occasion. Go with the experienced players/buyers here for this.

[Jeremy Allen]

Hi Pedro,
I hope your son is doing well at, where was it, North Texas State that he ended up? Or one of the New York schools?
All of the information you find on TalkBass will be very useful, but when bass-shopping for real you should plan on hitting a bunch of dealers, playing a lot of basses, and taking a couple of them home on trial for a few weeks. Most jazz-only players go into the shops not planning on spending more than $10K or $15K on a "professional level" bass, and that might be a good price range for you. If your son's fingers and ears are discerning enough at this point, he may notice a sharp increase in quality between the $15K range and the $25K range (although one will always find $10K basses that seem to them to be much better than the $25K basses at the same shop).
Good orchestra basses don't always make good jazz basses (and vice versa), but chances are the shops will have all of the more expensive basses set up for orchestra playing because those are the buyers with the money to spend on the better axes usually; don't hesitate to have the shop change strings and set-up for you in order to really check out the bass.
Don't mail-order a bass unless you do so on a trial period (I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers by making this statement). I bought a Shen 7/8 willow based on reports I found here, and it really was not a great bass. But then it cracked right away and they replaced it for me with another one, same model, and the replacement is just outstanding. So you need to be able to play the instruments and get a feel for them before making the big leap--every bass is different.
Re: new makers, I've heard that the Schnitzer/de Sola carved bass in the $12K range is just great, and based on the plywood of theirs I owned I can imagine that's true. I currently have Nick Lloyd's most recent creation in my hands for the next two months, and I can say that it's about the most impressive bass I've ever played from the standpoint of amplifying well and sitting in a mix with jazz groups of various sizes. He's in Cincinnati, and his new basses are in the $20-$25K range (and great for orchestra work, too).
I'm not sure what your options are in Madison, but I would head down to Chicago and hit the violin shops. I'm not familiar with that scene, but Mark Sonksen (sonksenstrings.com) and Michelle Fiore ("All Things Bass") and Kagan and Gaines are definitely places to start shopping in the metro area. One of my students just picked up a great old German/Czech jazz machine at Kagan and Gaines for $6500, and I don't think it was ever listed on their website.
Good luck!

[pedro]

Thanks guys. I'll try to be more specific but keep in mind that I may not know enough to be too specific.

Jazz or orchestral? I'm pretty sure his main gig will be jazz. I just didn't want to completely discount the possibility that some orchestral work might happen on a low level.

[pedro]

I suggest that you start right here

Thanks for the link. I’ll read thru it and hopefully some of it will sink in.

I'll assume that you are looking to buy a fully carved bass. Yes?

I would think so but am willing to listen if you guys don’t think its necessary.

What is your budget?

That’ll depend on what he’s willing and able to come up with and what the price is to get into a ‘take-me-serious’ bass.

On what type of music will your son be focusing?

On upright, jazz (although he plays pretty much anything anybody is willing to pay money for (pedro very happy that he’s managed to help his son connect ‘musician’ and ‘professional’.)

In what type of venues will he be playing?

Who knows? I’m guessing mostly small jazz clubs. But he’s managed to earn his keep over the past year or so playing wedding, dinner clubs, etc.

I'm sure someone will chime in with what are good luthiers to visit in your area.

Well that’s my problem the local luthier that I was counting on to guide me has gone in a different direction and is no longer available. If he was still around I’d have no hesitation asking him to help us find something appropriate.

Especially if you are talking serious money here, it's important for your son to play as many candidate basses as possible so that he can find the right "fit."

I agree. As I said above, I’ve suggested he talk to his teacher and I will also suggest that he try out as many different instruments as possible – fellow student, visiting bass players, etc.

[pedro]

Hi Pedro,
I hope your son is doing well at, where was it, North Texas State that he ended up? Or one of the New York schools?

He's doing great thanks, and thanks for remembering. Working hard but also having fun.

All of the information you find on TalkBass will be very useful, but when bass-shopping for real you should plan on hitting a bunch of dealers, playing a lot of basses, and taking a couple of them home on trial for a few weeks.

Do dealers allow this?

Most jazz-only players go into the shops not planning on spending more than $10K or $15K on a "professional level" bass, and that might be a good price range for you.

I do recall our Luthier telling me that he (my son) had a very nice Kay and that I'd likely have to caugh up at least $10k to get to a noticeable step up so what you say sounds familiar. Still I'd like to try to shoot a bit higher that the $10 if I feel that it'll get him to a point where he's not going to need to shop around for a good long while.

If your son's fingers and ears are discerning enough at this point, he may notice a sharp increase in quality between the $15K range and the $25K range

I have enormous respect for his ears and hands but I'd say that much beyond $15 would be beyond my ability to scrape up enough to help. He'd have to sell or trade his bass and empty his bank account. I do expect him to participate in this purchase just like he did in the Kay.

I'm not sure what your options are in Madison, but I would head down to Chicago and hit the violin shops.

I don't think that there are any options anymore. I have a good friend who is with the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra (trumpet), and I can perhaps can ask him to put is in touch with one of the bass players in the orchestra to see if there is anything in Milwaukee. I could probably also contact my son's former teacher in Chicago and find out if there are any dealer's there I should see.

I might be willing to do some traveling. A road trip w/ my boy would be a lot of fun. Are there specific dealers you know of or recommend that might be worth a trip?

[Jeremy Allen]

I don't want to get the multi-quote-within-a-quote thing going, so:
Do dealers let you take basses home on trial? Absolutely! I've never bought a bass I hadn't taken home and played a bunch of gigs with first. The people in Cincinnati and New York definitely let you do this; I can't imagine anyone expecting a bassist to plunk down $15K without getting to know the instrument on their own turf. (And besides, it's a physical law that every bass sounds better in the dealer's showroom than it does anywhere else.)

As for specific dealers, there are so many. Ready for a road trip? The Cincinnati Bass Cellar (www.stringbass.com) is kind of the big place for everyone from Nashville to Cleveland; I've found a couple of nice basses there, and if you're in Cincy you can run over to Nick Lloyd's shop (www.nicklloydbasses.com) as well and play one of his basses (out of your price range, though) and some of the Shens he has on hand (but Nick's not really a dealer, more of a maker and purveyor of Shens and New Standards). Then you can head east, stopping at Shank's Strings in Pennsylvania (www.shankstrings.com) before landing in New York and going to Arnold Schnitzer's place in Brewster (www.aesbass.com), David Gage's bass mecca in Tribeca (www.davidgage.com), Barrie Kolstein's shop on Long Island (www.kolstein.com), and around the corner from him, Jeff Bollbach (although I don't know what Jeff has in stock--he makes his own and fixes other people's stuff, as far as I know). There are of course more places in New York City, and in Connecticut, and up to Boston...But this is starting to sound like a bass-buying version of "On The Road."

[Carl Johnson]

You should see what your son wanting. Speak with him and his teacher, find out what they think.

For sure don’t buy anything on-line. If your willing to spend for the right bass, you and your son should hit the road check stores in Chicago or Minneapolis as many as you can.

A lot of professional jazz players I see are on German or Czech ¾ sized basses with a string length of no more than that 41 ½ inches, somewhere between 50 and 120 years old. I seem to see more flatbacks that round. Definitely you want it healthy since nothing cost more that bass repair also keep the Kay around as a backup.

As for Kay’s, your guy's blowing smoke, just about any OK solid wood bass will be a noticeable improvement. I’d be surprised if you couldn’t find a good axe for around 7000, healthy and good, not necessarily pretty.

[pedro]

Ah Jeremy, you mentioned a few places in NY and since I have lots of friends there its a good place for us to visit. But you also mentioned Boston and since my daughter is in school there we could kill too birds with one stone. Any particular places in Boston that you think are worth visiting?

You should see what your son wanting. Speak with him and his teacher, find out what they think.

Thanks Carl. Yea I've already mentioned that I asked my son to speak to his professor. He's going to be the one to decide what he likes, after all he's the one that's going to be playing it.

As for Kay’s, your guy's blowing smoke,

I doubt it, after all he had no horse in the race. But whether its $7 or $10 the main point is to make a significant improvement.

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by pedro

Any particular places in Boston that you think are worth visiting?

Volker Nahrmann has a lot of basses outside of Boston (www.nahrmannbass.com), and I think our own Mark Carlsen sells basses (he works on them for sure). One of our Boston guys would have to chime in since it's been some time since I was there...

[pedro]

Thanks my friend. BTW, how are things down your way?

[Bass Barrister]

A few places in Chicago:

Mark Sonksen, www.sonksenstrings.com , my personal favorite;
a440 violin shop, good selection of basses;
Classic Contrabass, Wheeling, IL - Michele Fiore;
Kagan & Gaines, Forest Park, IL,

All the above are good. There may be a couple of other places as well, but they escape me.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by pedro

I do recall our Luthier telling me that he (my son) had a very nice Kay and that I'd likely have to caugh up at least $10k to get to a noticeable step up so what you say sounds familiar.

Okay, I was taken aback by this as well. Cough up at least $10k for a noticeable improvement over a Kay? Whether intentional or not, he is blowing smoke. Even if you substitute $7k, it still doesn't make sense.

[MingusAmongUs]

Obviously this is all very subjective. I personally don't think you need to spend a certain amount to get to a "professional" level instrument... OK, you need to plan on spending a few grand at least. But beyond that, the best advice has already been given. Have your son see and play and hear (can you bring along another bass player for this?) as many basses as he can. The best one he can afford is the one he should get. So it helps to have a clear idea how much you/he can spend.

Don't get hung up on "pro >= $xxxxx".
May the force be with you.

[pedro]

The link given mentioned financing and I was wondering if any of you guys had any information on it?

Have your son see and play and hear (can you bring along another bass player for this?) as many basses as he can. The best one he can afford is the one he should get. So it helps to have a clear idea how much you/he can spend.

Don't get hung up on "pro >= $xxxxx".
May the force be with you.

I'm curious about why bring another bass player?

Okay, I was taken aback by this as well. Cough up at least $10k for a noticeable improvement over a Kay? Whether intentional or not, he is blowing smoke. Even if you substitute $7k, it still doesn't make sense.

Perhaps I misquoted him. In hindsight perhaps what he was saying is that that amount would get him to next logical step. Not that there isn't an improvement before that price point.

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by pedro

I'm curious about why bring another bass player?

Not critical, but it helps the player to hear the bass played from a distance, because it will sound vastly different than it will when it's in his hands. Has to do with low frequency wavelengths taking several feet to fully form, or some such scientific mumbo-jumbo...
Even though bass waves are more omnidirectional than higher freqs, it will still sound very different from a distance.