Holbein basses?

[Jammin Joe]

Ok, so I took everyones advice and went out and played some entry level ($1k-1.2k) basses. (I am a guitar and electric bass player looking for a new hobby). In my general area (Chicago suburbs) only Sam Ash had basses in stock. They had Carlos Rebeli and Holbein. The Carlos Rebeli's quite beautiful but sucked in terms of tone. I mean that had no real tone and almost no volume. (Action aside, as I think I can do most of the adjustments myself.) They had a Holbein for $1200 that while the action was a little low it had a much fuller and a warmer tone. The volume was also considerablely louder. It was not near as good looking unfortunately. I guess you can't have it all when only paying $1200. Anyone have any expierence with these?

I think this is the identical bass online:

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showit...subsearch=true

Thanks

[Eli_Upright12]

only problem is the ebonized parts which translates to cheaper wood painted black(usually). Find a luthier who can guide you or even may have a bass in this price range for you.otherwise theres always Upton, Shen, Strunal, Bob Gollihur, englehart(I dont like them, but some people do), and lots of others, Bob G even sells a fully carved bass for somethin like 2500 I dont know what your price range is but always a thought.

[dchan]

If you're in the Chicago area, I suggest you look at Bob Gollihur's Luthier Links for Chicago luthiers:

http://www.gollihur.com/kkbass/luthiers.html

And I believe that Michelle Fiore was mentioned somewhat recently, and from what I hear, she does excellent work.

http://www.classiccontrabass.com,

You can get a decent Shen or Romanian plywood (or hybrid if you can afford it) for a good price. In addition, your bass gets setup to be not only easy to play but pretty damn good sounding.

Plus, she's in the Chicago suburb area (Wheeling), but I'm not familiar with Chicago much.

So if you have the choice between getting a decent, respectable , and well setup bass and one which is generally shunned and bad-mouthed on TB, what would you get?

Just remember that the same rule applies, as always, when shopping for basses: Try as many as you can before you buy.

[Jammin Joe]

[quote=dchan;4082705]
So if you have the choice between getting a decent, respectable , and well setup bass and one which is generally shunned and bad-mouthed on TB, what would you get?
QUOTE]

While I understand this statement, I find it a tad bit funny too and silly at the same time. Just because something is shunned and bad-mouthed on a forum does not automatically make it bad. (it may or may not be in this case..I don't really know). I can name several top of the line Guitars/Amps or Recording gear that get shunned daily on other forums yet are considered top of the class by others. Personally I can not stand Fender guitars and consider them junk, while that's all others will play. So I am not sure a general statement can be made just because of brand name alone. To each thier own....

Back to basses. So do you personally consider the $1200 price tag on this Holbein to be too much or that the quality of the bass is just not worth buying at any price? (FWIW: it was actually a really good sounding bass that played quite well)

On this very forum everyone said to skip over the $500-800 range and look at the $1000-$1200 range for entry level DB's. That is what I am doing at this point. Did they steer me wrong? Will an Elkhardt be any better of a quality in this price range?

Thanks and I'll keep looking. The location listed in the above posts are quite a ways away from where I am located. Probably 75+ miles. If I can find the right bass, I am willing to travel to pick it up. As for budget.....my budget is whatever it takes to purchase a bass that will suit my needs to learn and play at some level of proficientcy. I guess that is anywhere from Free-$2K or more if I have too. But I am guessing I don't have to spend that much to buy a decent DB to learn on. I also don't want to just spend money needlessly either.



JD

[Michael Case]

If you're going to get a bass from Sam Ash, get the holbien. I have owned a Carlo Robelli bass and can say this STAY AWAY FROM IT! Just search Carlo Robelli on this site and you'll see many posts by me about these abominations. The Holbein basses are made in the Strunal factory in the Czech republic and are held to a higher quality control standard.

[Jammin Joe]

Thanks Mike. I appreciate your responce. Yes the Holbein was a much better bass and better quality than the Robeli. Not that the Holbein was great or anything, but it was not junk either.

I am going to keep looking anyway, now that I know my options from the bigger superstores. I would love to find a string instrument place to visit just to see what my used options are. I am not planning on taking lessons, so this is just a pass-time project when I am not gigging. I still want something I can work with though.

JD

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Jammin Joe

I guess that is anywhere from Free-$2K or more if I have too. But I am guessing I don't have to spend that much to buy a decent DB to learn on. I also don't want to just spend money needlessly either.

I have just two comments. First, especially if you budget exceeds $2k, I would suggest you do as suggested and visit/buy from a real-live luthier. That brings me to the second comment. The setup is key! I don't know what are your talents but can you dress a fingerboard, hang a tailpiece in just the right spot and carve a bridge to near-perfection? A reputable luthier can provide you with a setup that will feel great to play and get the most out of the bass sonically.

[dchan]

Well, I guess I can see where you're coming from.

Bass guitarists have the luxury of having many, many people playing bass guitars. This allows for manufacturers to develop and create decent to very good instruments for not a lot of money. It also allows for many types and varieties of bass guitars, which allows for bassists to actually have the choice of strongly preferring one bass to another, and even hating a bass that someone else loves.

Double bassists don't have that luxury. We're limited to our set number choices. While $1000 can get a decent bass guitar (for some bassists), $1000 will very rarely get you a decent double bass. Almost never. For $2000 to $4000, we get better instruments, we still do not have enough instruments that we can strongly prefer one bass to another, or completely hate a bass. We have to make do with our options.

So for double basses, if we say something is bad, we mean it. That is, if we're talking about a bass as being really crappy, it means steer clear of them.

So which basses are these?
The Cremonas, Palantinos, Meronas, and other cheap, crappy instruments from China. These are usually sold as the only bass in a typical music store. Also they're sold on eBay in vast amounts. Check it out, you'll see.
And from what I hear, the double basses from Sam Ash.

What makes them lousy? It's not just the bad sound or the fact that they're sold with unplayable setup. It's also their workmanship and materials. Pore over the forum and you'll read stories of such basses falling apart on their owners, costing them hundreds of dollars for repairs that aren't worth it. Over time, these repairs cost more than the bass is worth.


Note: not all Chinese instruments are bad. Shen basses, for example, are pretty solid instruments with a decent sound.


Anyway, the $1000-$1200 is never a good way to look at for a decent instrument. The first thing to do is stay away from music shops that sell all sorts of instruments, such as Sam Ash. You'll only find one or two basses there, and they'll be cheap, crappy Chinese made basses. Not many choices there, and they're bad choices. See above.

So where to search? Bass Luthiers and doublebass shops, maybe even string shops if they carry several doublebasses. You'll not only get a good selection, but expert advice from the luthiers. Michelle Fiore and a few others will even setup the bass at no cost to you as long as you buy the bass from them.
And the cost? The Shens plywoods only go from $1300 to $2000, not much more than the Holbein.

Can you say that Sam Ash will do the same? I doubt it.

So if you "don't want to just spend money needlessly", I would suggest that you travel the extra 75+ miles. You also won't spend that much either.

PS. The Englehardt is a decent instrument as well. If you could find one, try it out. There are also other decent basses for you budget. But always try out as many basses that you see fit before you buy. That way, you wouldn't "spend money needlessly".

PPS. Just found out that Holbein is made by Strunal, a Czech company. They seem to be solid instruments, won't fall apart like crappy Chinese basses, but not overly impressive. As I said before, try out out other basses before you buy.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Jammin Joe

I am not planning on taking lessons...

Just a suggestion. Even one or two lessons from a good teacher will enhance you enjoyment immensely and set you on the right path. It will also help you to avoid injuring yourself.

[drurb]

Hey dchan--

Nice post and explanation. You offered fine advice.

Just one comment. You said:

Originally Posted by dchan

For $2000 to $4000, we get better instruments, we still do not have enough instruments that we can strongly prefer one bass to another, or completely hate a bass.

I suspect you'd agree that quality and price are often not one-to-one when it comes to basses. IMO, there are actually some poor deals in the $2k-4k price range. Those aside, of the basses worth considering that fall into that price range, I think one can still develop strong preferences. I know that I have developed some. I won't mention any brands. Still, I agree that it seems very different than what can go on with BGs.

[Jammin Joe]

Dear Drake,

Thanks for your more detailed responce, this make much more sense to me. Yes the Holbein is not chineese. Just the same, I will keep looking to see what else is avail. I may just call the Fiore gal mentioned above an plan to make a day of the visit to her shop.

One thing I know from being a guitar teacher for many years, is to encourage the students to purchase the best instrument they can aford. For nothing else, it usually is easier to learn on....as well as easier to sell. I do know that also is true with stringed instruments.


Also as far as setups, my dad was a luthier and made violins/mandolins/guitars along with stringed instrument repairs. So I have been working in repair shops my whole life. We did not do setups on basses though so that is new to me. I figure I can probably do a decent setup, but obviously not as well as someone that does it every day. So you all have a point there for sure. I have repaired a few cracks in old cello's and basses.

[Jammin Joe]

DRurb. I see your point for lessons. My friend a multiple grammy nominated jazz artist. I can call his awesome bass player and see if he will give me a few lessons just to get me started. I play guitar with his quartette about once a month or so. I may actually see them this weekend. If not, I work on a regular basis with several other DB players.

Thanks again everyone.

JD

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Jammin Joe

DRurb. I see your point for lessons. My friend a multiple grammy nominated jazz artist. I can call his awesome bass player and see if he will give me a few lessons just to get me started. I play guitar with his quartette about once a month or so. I may actually see them this weekend. If not, I work on a regular basis with several other DB players.

Thanks again everyone.

JD

Very wise of you! I was serious about the avoidance of injury. That alone, is worth the lesson or two.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Jammin Joe

Also as far as setups, my dad was a luthier and made violins/mandolins/guitars along with stringed instrument repairs. So I have been working in repair shops my whole life. We did not do setups on basses though so that is new to me. I figure I can probably do a decent setup, but obviously not as well as someone that does it every day. So you all have a point there for sure. I have repaired a few cracks in old cello's and basses.

As far as I know, the doublebass is a far different animal than the other instruments of the violin family. The setup of the bass is very, very different. In fact, I think this guy here hammers in the point:

http://jeffbollbach.com/

[Bass Barrister]

The bass shops in and around Chicago that I know of:

Sonksen Strings, Chicago, near north: www.sonksenstrings.com
Mark Sonksen, my luthier - great guy

Classic Contrabass, Wheeling, nw suburb: www.allthingsbass.com
Michelle Fiore, very nice person to deal with

Kagan & Gaines, Forest Park, west burbs:
www.kaganandgaines.com
they have a web-site and have several Kays right now

a440 Violin Shop: Chicago, north side
www.a440violinshop.com
Mark Hogan (? is he still there)

There's also a great luthier in Evanston but he does not usually sell basses.

FWIW, you will be much happier getting something from one of these folks.

[lowEndRick]

My first bass was a Holbein. And while it definitely fit into the "decent bass to learn on" category, it certainly had it's limitations. First, it is not as sturdy as many of the other european plywoods that I have played. Second, because it lacks in sturdiness it tends to choke-off notes when you play pizz aggressively.

[LouisF]

TAlk to Michael Spadar at A440 in Chicago (I don't know Mark myself). He probably has Christopher or Eastman basses in the $1200-1500 range and they would be very well set up. I've had several dealing s with them (including selling a bass and bow on consignment for me) and they are very good -- as is Michele in Wheeling and Steve Reinfrank in Evanston (who may have student basses in that range). I don't know Mark Sonksen, but hear only good things about him, so there's no reason to get a bad bass - even in that price range.


Louis