How COULD this sound so good?

thejumpcat · #1 03-01-2009, 02:03 AM

OK, it's 3:45 a.m. Just got home from a gig and I'm stymied.

I've been playing an old Kay Swingmaster with a Realist or Underwood for years in a jump blues band. I've used an AI Contra with their extension cabinet; a GK 400 with a Carvin 2x10 or a Bag End 15; a GK 1001RB III through an Acme Low B2, and probably some other stuff that I can't remember.

I've had Spirocores, Obligatos and lastly LaBella blacktapes. The bass always sounded really good, but never fabulous.

I sold the Kay a couple of weeks ago and set my sites on a Cleveland. In the meantime, I've been playing my 55 reissue P.

So tonight, my drummer -- yes, my DRUMMER -- let me use his bass rig (he's trying to learn upright). He has a piece of crap ebay special bass - you know the one "NEW 3/4 size Upright Doghouse BASS FIDDLE, FREE SHIP ^
FREE SHIPPING!!!! 2 Sets of STRINGS Included !!!!!!! -- $499" and about 50 of the same ones are for sale all the time.

He bought it a year or two ago and had the endpin and bridge upgraded and the fingerboard planed. That's it for mods.

He put Lenzner gut G,D and A strings and a Eurosonic E on it, and uses an Underwood pickup. We used his GK MB112S on top of an Ampeg Porta 2x12.

So there's the formula -- lousy bass, OK strings, low-powered combo through not-very-popular cabinet.

AND THE THING SOUNDED INCREDIBLE! I mean it was phenomenal THUMPING jump blues tonight. My singer, guitarist and the drummer were laughing it sounded so good.

I don't get it. And I'm thinking about dropping $4,300 on a Cleveland with possibly Chordas and a Full Circle??? Am I nuts? Is the above turd rig all that's needed to get a classic jump blues sound? I mean, I don't want to be a snob, but somebody help me out here. I could buy a helluva lot of beer with the savings.

I'm not going to be able to sleep now because my brain's so scrambled. I thought I was heading down the right rig road but now this detour comes up has me second-guessing my plan.

dmusic148 · #2 03-01-2009, 02:18 AM

Obviously it means you can really play-have a drink on me!

bassist1962 · #3 03-01-2009, 04:20 AM

In my experience - The crap has always landed me more compliments on my sound than the high end stuff. - It's weird.

martinc · #4 03-01-2009, 07:08 AM

I recently heard a very cheap Chinese bass running through a cheap Crate amp using an 80 dollar tube pre-amp. Can't remember the type of strings but I think it was an Underwood pickup. The sound from where I was sitting was very good for the country/blues/swing stuff he was playing.
Who knows how long it will last without structural problems. Sounded terrible without the amplification.
But if you don't plan on using it that way........for 500 bucks it's something to think about.

Jason Sypher · #5 03-01-2009, 10:08 AM

I think what "sounds good" depends a lot on the application. Many of those old recordings that we love so well were recorded on mediocre Kays, Epiphones and other ply brands of the day. When I say mediocre, I don't mean the brands, I mean the condition. Strung up with some guts through a decent bass-heavy rig and there's the sound your were looking for! The sound is virtually all bass, no mids and a whisper of highs from the gut strings....great! I mean, that's really it. Now, as far as that bass being around for more than a few years, that's another story. A solid Kay, Epi or AS (NS) will last a lifetime and then some if properly maintained. Those cheap basses will be found in the bag in pieces sooner than you can say "whole paycheck". Get a solid bass that will last you a lifetime and not only have that great sound today but in years to come. Also, you might consider that you will grow musically as you play and become a better bassist and will probably want an instrument that can grow with you. Cheap basses are like cheap wine, they deliver an initial punch to the untrained palate but quickly sour as you develop taste.

drurb · #6 03-01-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

I think what "sounds good" depends a lot on the application.

Ah, that's the key! I'm guessing that, given the style and type of music that the thejumpcat is playing, the desired sound can be achieved via the right tonal shaping of an amp that's part of a rig that can supply sufficient sound pressure level. That sound may depend far less on the tonal character of the bass itself. (For those of you apt to interpret this negatively, this is NOT a criticism!) Still, for all the reasons Jason cited, it's a good idea to have a quality bass. In addition, a good bass will be easier to play.

For many of us, myself included, amplification is a necessary evil and the holy grail is to achieve the sound of the bass, but bigger. In such cases, the tonal complexity of the instrument played acoustically is what's important.

thejumpcat · #7 03-01-2009, 10:38 AM

Yeah, I know -- that cheap Chinese bass would be scrap wood after several months of club gigging. I was afraid to turn it at all on stage for fear of bumping into the harp player's Bassman or the PA. It wouldn't take much to trash it, I'm afraid (I tried to explain that to my drummer when he bought it).

I'm just stunned that it NAILED the tone I've been trying to get for a dozen years. After thinking about it more, the key factor to that tone was more than likely the guts. They've got a dead thump that's just IT. Their sustain is minimal and the decay is just perfect for blues. And these were just Lenzers. I can't imagine what a high-quality set of guts (at least the D & G) would sound like. Actually, better or worse for blues????

I did have a little trouble with trying to pluck the guts on a fast jump tune. My fingers kept sticking to the strings and I missed several notes, a bit due to the higher action than I'm used to. But on slow stuff, forget about it. Guts smoke.

I don't know how important the other elements are -- Underwood, 2x12 cabinet, GK combo, cheap bass.

I realize that a Cleveland will probably be the last bass I ever buy (I'm 49), and an axe that will inspire me to play more and more. I'm 99% positive that a Cleveland can nail the sound I want and much, much more.

But I must say, for two LONG sets in a packed, smokey club last night, I was in blues bassist heaven...

thejumpcat · #8 03-01-2009, 10:41 AM

Yes, drurb, there ain't much "tonal complexity" sought in the blues stuff I play. I need THUMP and lots of it.

But....if the lessons I'm taking from the local jazz God ever click in my feeble brain, I think the Cleveland will be ready to take me on that ride, too.

drurb · #9 03-01-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejumpcat

I realize that a Cleveland will probably be the last bass I ever buy (I'm 49), and an axe that will inspire me to play more and more.

Can't help it-- this gave me a chuckle. At 46, I bout a nice hybrid to replace the Kay I had for 30+ years. Didn't see why I'd ever need anything more. Age 47-- moved up to a nice carved bass. Surely, that would be it. Age 51-- bought an even better carved bass. I guess I'm done, unless...

thejumpcat · #10 03-01-2009, 11:06 AM

Oh, I know!! The equipment bug never stops gnawing, does it?

I guess I'm HOPING the Cleveland is it. From everything I've ever read here about them, they sound like exactly what I need to play into the sunset...

Honk'n_down-low · #11 03-01-2009, 11:17 AM

I've played expensive instruments that sounded so so and cheap stuff that dropped my Jaw - as they say...

Sometimes Less is More

drurb · #12 03-01-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejumpcat

Oh, I know!! The equipment bug never stops gnawing, does it?

I guess I'm HOPING the Cleveland is it. From everything I've ever read here about them, they sound like exactly what I need to play into the sunset...

Yup, no reason to believe that the Cleveland wouldn't be all you'd ever need. There's the rub. The last carved bass I had was probably all I ever needed. Then, I played a really fine old German roundback. My brain said, "We want this!" So, four years later I have a bass that probably surpasses that one. It helps to have a supportive and understanding wife!

thejumpcat · #13 03-01-2009, 11:35 AM

The first one (wife), not so supportive. The second, much better. In fact, she asked me NOT to sell it.

Jason Sypher · #14 03-01-2009, 12:54 PM

Based on what you've said I think the Cleveland will be heaven for you. Put a decent set of guts (they don't HAVE to be boutique guts) and get it set up right and you are gonna love that bass. I think we all kind of know when we need a different bass. This sounds like the perfect bass for you, right now. And it will allow you plenty of room to grow. Worry about the next bass another time, this is gonna carry you for awhile. Incidentally, I used to have a relatively cheap plywood bass with an underwood and golden spirals when I lived in New Orleans. I used a SWR Baby Blue II with a Hartke 15 on the bottom. Let me tell you, that was a GREAT sound. And I didn't have to play hard to get it (in fact, the opposite was true). I played with some great players with that set up, Ernie Kado, Clarence Gatemouth Brown, Butch Trivette, Jeremy Lions, Coco Robiceaux, Clifton Chenier Jr., and it worked perfectly in that kind of music. Course, it wasn't much acoustically, but with the whole picture it was HUGE and WARM. Good luck with that NS.

JeffKissell · #15 03-01-2009, 03:55 PM

The Cleveland is a great bass and it would probably blow the CCB out of the water with all other things being the same through your buddy's rig.

I own a laminated Cleveland with gut strings. Acoustically it kills, it sounds like the old recordings, blah, blah blah...I'll always keep this bass even if I get a carved bass at some point (ala Uncle Toad.) It sounds great unamped, is well built, and is super easy to play. The key to the sound with laminated basses it to maximize what it is, and don't expect what is not there. I have a friend who has a Shen Willow also with the same gut strings and for the most part through a PA or amp the basses sound similar, really punchy and really warm.

For amplification I'm currently using a Realist through Clarus III and a newish Wizzy 12 (not M-Line). In a room alone through the amp at low volume it sounds great. At gig volume, again alone, it sounds clanky and artificial. With a band, either at rehearsal or on the gig, it sounds really good; like a double bass with gut strings. Most of the clanky, artificial amp sound is sucked up by the drums, guitar and B3. This band plays old R&B, organ jazz, blues, really old funk and the like. I'm really happy with the sound and portability.

My other main project is an acoustic songwriter type dealio. Mostly the instrumentation is cello/guitar, mando/guitar and bass with lots of singing/harmonies. This band always rehearses acoustically and I think the Cleveland really shines here (although the complexity and nuance of a carved bass would be noticeable.) I use a Fishman PP bass pre/di directly into a PA and/or FOH for performance. But again, alone, at higher volumes the bass sounds clanky and artificial through the preamp. "My bass, only louder" only works to a certain volume when you're doing it yourself. I'm convinced this is true for most gigging bass players. The only caveat being a sound guy who knows how to mic a doublebass.

-J

thejumpcat · #16 03-01-2009, 04:35 PM

Yeah, I noticed a bit of the "clank" you mention, but when the band kicked in, I couldn't hear it anymore.

For those who give a rat's...I had the bass and low midrange at 12 o'clock; the treble at about 9 o'clock and the hi mid at about 8 o'clock.....which may or may not mean anything to anybody.

I've been hearing last night's thump in my head all day. Wow. I'm so geeked to get my Cleveland from Nick Lloyd I can't stand it. God, what a joy it is to play an instrument when it sounds just like you want it to. I remember when I was the guitarist -- a Strat through a Super Reverb. Man, you can just blast off when you got your tone. You feel like you can play anything, take chances and just make it happen.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #17 03-02-2009, 09:38 AM

I have cleaned the thread up after a round of unpleasantness. At this point, I'd like to ask everyone to try one of several things when someone else on the forum is getting on your nerves or getting in the way of the forum operating smoothly:

1) If rules are being broken, report the posts in question before the flames spread.

2) If there is a strong disagreement between two or more members, please try to either resolve your differences (on the board or in PM), or slug it out in PM. ****ing matches in the forums don't do anyone any good.

3) If all else fails, use the ignore list for members whose posts you don't want to deal with. It's a very useful feature.

Paul Warburton · #18 03-02-2009, 09:41 AM

Oh Bob.....ya got me a bit concerned on this one.
Please gimme a PM.
PW.

Steve Clark · #19 03-02-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejumpcat

I'm so geeked to get my Cleveland from Nick Lloyd I can't stand it.

I got my Shen Willow from Nnick. It was the worth the drive from London ON. I was torn between getting the Cleveland and the Shen. But I am loving playing this DB. The slab basses barely see the light of day.

BPeder · #20 03-02-2009, 01:22 PM

Scope it? I know it's probably not going to happen but it would be interesting to see a sound analysis on a screen when you have something as inexplicable as a bass that should not sound so good but does.

As a graphic artist, I know how to look at curves and levels in an image and see exactly what's happening in the shadows, midtones and highlights that makes an excellently color corrected, sharpened image look better than one that is raw out of the camera. Is there an analog to sound? I'd like to see the "color gamut" of that bass JumpCat played... What think?