How much better are Hybrids in comparison to Laminated

[lloccmttocs]

Hey everyone

I have a UB laminated bass and it has actually been a pretty well working bass, but soon I will be attending college for double bass and I believe it is time to uprage. I was very interested in the UB professor bass (Upton is really good for me, it's only about a 15 minute drive for me) But 5,000 dollars was a little bit too far out of my price range for now. So the next step inbetween the laminated and Professor is a Hybrid.

The Hybrid UB set up bass is a nice looking bass, not super cheap but not horrible I think last time I checked it was around 2400, and with my trade in I'd probably be paying about 1000 of my own money, which I have somewhere. So 1000 is not a problem. Question is, is it really worth the thousand upgrade or would I just be pouring money down the drain. I talked to Gary Upton and he gave me some things but I just wanted post this and see what everyone had to say.

[Chasarms]

I don't know the physics of a bass making sound well enough to say that the top plays the biggest roll, but my Hybrid does produce a much more complex tone, especially with the bow, than did my plywood. (or any other plywood that I have ever played)

Obviously there are some excellent plywood basses out there, depending on what you do on a bass. As well as some hybrids that are dogs.

Hybrids are nice in that they do, for the most part, sound better than a bass with a laminated top but are a little more durable and certainly less expensive than a fully carved bass.

That said, if your vision is to own a carved bass, I think I would probably hold on to the ply until your resources matches your vision.

[Jeff Bollbach]

A hybrid will be an easily noticable upgrade in arco tone. However you can find a very nice fully carved instrument for less than 5k.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by lloccmttocs

Hey everyone

I have a UB laminated bass and it has actually been a pretty well working bass, but soon I will be attending college for double bass and I believe it is time to uprage. I was very interested in the UB professor bass (Upton is really good for me, it's only about a 15 minute drive for me) But 5,000 dollars was a little bit too far out of my price range for now. So the next step inbetween the laminated and Professor is a Hybrid.

The Hybrid UB set up bass is a nice looking bass, not super cheap but not horrible I think last time I checked it was around 2400, and with my trade in I'd probably be paying about 1000 of my own money, which I have somewhere. So 1000 is not a problem. Question is, is it really worth the thousand upgrade or would I just be pouring money down the drain. I talked to Gary Upton and he gave me some things but I just wanted post this and see what everyone had to say.

One can state that, in general, hybrids have a more complex tone than laminates. As pointed out already, it depends on the particular basses in question.

This, however, seems not even to be the point for you. Rather, you are asking whether the Upton hybrid is an improvement over the Upton laminate. You say you are only 15 min. from Upton's shop. Did you play the two side-by-side? I have played the older Upton laminates, the newer Upton laminates, the older Upton hybrids, and the newer Upton hybrids. The hybrid that Upton now sells is, in my opinion, vastly superior to their laminates (which, as you note are quite good) and a huge bang for the buck.

Then again, why ask us? Let your ears be the judge.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Jeff Bollbach

A hybrid will be an easily noticable upgrade in arco tone. However you can find a very nice fully carved instrument for less than 5k.

Jeff-- please tell us more. What fully carved basses do you especially like that are under $5k?

[lloccmttocs]

Originally Posted by Jeff Bollbach

A hybrid will be an easily noticable upgrade in arco tone. However you can find a very nice fully carved instrument for less than 5k.

Well, Upton has a trade in policy so I can get pretty much what I paid for it towards my next bass. And I can always upgrade to the hybrid then upgrade to the fully carved when I have the money. I mostly play Arco so if a hybrid is significantly better for arco then it is a deffinate possibility

Thanks for the replies though!

[Jeff Bollbach]

Originally Posted by drurb

Jeff-- please tell us more. What fully carved basses do you especially like that are under $5k?

I happen to love the Shen willows. It is very well designed and has the right arch for a willow bass. In my previous employ I saw many basses with willow sides and ribs. Mostly they had a very shallow arch and while very cushy and responsive in the low end they were often very wolfy and lacking in the upper register. These Shen basses seem to have addressed that with a rather proud arch on the top. The price range for them is in the upper 3k's.

[Silversorcerer]

At less than $3K, and almost 2 yrs. old now, my 4/4 5-string all carved Kremona Bulgaria just blows away a lot of pricier basses. Maybe I just got lucky, but this thing exceeds my expectations by a long shot and all of the local musicians that I play with comment that it is one of the best DB's that they've heard. It is definitely a keeper to me, and I love the arco sound. Plucked is fine too;- loud, nice growl, long sustain;- but the arco tone is truly to die for.

I have heard some hybrids that sound about as good. Specifically the Christophers. I'm kind of wary of the construction of those though. Locally there have been some issues with several of those and reports of flaws on this forum as well. Comparatively, the Kremona is built like a tank.

I think the biggest factor in better sound is the top plate being carved. Granted, I have not been able to A-B mine to any of the Upton models. I just don't know anyone who has one of those close to me. But any of the plywoods I have seen here are just no where close and there are some fancier carved basses in the $4K to $7K range around that don't sound as good as mine at all to me. Those do have a nicer oil finish and more grain figure in the maple, but so what. You can't hear that.

Downside on the Kremona is you probably have to buy a Kremona sight un-seen and the out of the box set-up, while not really bad, definitely should be improved as soon as you get it.

[PB+J]

This is just a question--is it inevitable that a plytop is not going to sound as complex? From a physics standpoint, the top is just piece of material with a good stiffness to weight ratio. There are guitar luthiers who experiment with multi ply tops, sandwiches of various materials, and argue that they can be stronger, lighter, and more responsive. It seems plausible, and I assume "plywood" or "laminate" can mmean a lot of different things

I speak as a guy who went from a ply bass to a fully carved bass and thought the difference was huge, but I also played some hybrids that I thought were not hugely better sounding than my old ply englehardt--although this was mostly pizz.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by PB+J

This is just a question--is it inevitable that a plytop is not going to sound as complex? From a physics standpoint, the top is just piece of material with a good stiffness to weight ratio. There are guitar luthiers who experiment with multi ply tops, sandwiches of various materials, and argue that they can be stronger, lighter, and more responsive. It seems plausible, and I assume "plywood" or "laminate" can mmean a lot of different things

I speak as a guy who went from a ply bass to a fully carved bass and thought the difference was huge, but I also played some hybrids that I thought were not hugely better sounding than my old ply englehardt--although this was mostly pizz.

Sorry to inject some science geek talk but I think of the quality of lams, hybrids, and carved basses as forming three distributions. Along the "quality" dimension, the mean is lowest for lam, intermediate for hybrid, and very high for carved basses. The distributions overlap to varying degrees. So, you are likely to find a hybrid-- likely at the poor end of its distribution-- that sounds only slightly better than your Engel.
Add personal preference to this and you can get almost any result you want. Some folks prefer the "typical" lam sound.

I am no expert when it comes to wood-- not even close. I think, however that is is not true that:

"From a physics standpoint, the top is just piece of material with a good stiffness to weight ratio."

The problem is the word "just." The top is much more than that. What also counts are its resonant properties. My understanding has been that a laminate is constructed of layers oriented in perpendicular fashion with respect to grain. Further, my understanding has been that, while this enhances strength, it inhibits what are the usual desired resonance properties. I am happy to be disabused of these notions by those more knowledgeable than I.

It is possible, of course, to end up with a hybrid that is judged to sound poorly than a good lam. Now we're back to the beginning-- the distributions and personal preference.

[Maaaven]

Without getting all technical, adding glue removes resonance.

[charmicarmicat]

so what about the new american standards? their ply basses have garnered some tremendous reviews in this forum.
my guess is that set up and attention to detail is were it's at. i bet that a shen (just an example) you'd purchase off either nick lloyd, arnold schnitzer or the guys at upton (to name a few, no diss to the other luthiers) will be a giant step above your purchase of the same instrument via an online retail giant.

[ctxbass]

We are discussing two different sounds here.
The worst laminated basses I have played sounded dead and boxy. The best laminated basses I have played have a great sound, deep, punchy, and yes, even "rich".
I have also played carved basses with a maybe more complex tone, but lacking in depth of sound. The best carved instruments have it all and are usually priced accordingly.
My guess is that the New Standard laminates have the attributes of the best ply basses, and that the hybrid models go a step further, adding that certain something only heard from a carved top.

[Paul New]

Doesn`t Upton sell the Shens now? You should try the carved Shen.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by drurb

Sorry to inject some science geek talk but I think of the quality of lams, hybrids, and carved basses as forming three distributions. Along the "quality" dimension, the mean is lowest for lam, intermediate for hybrid, and very high for carved basses. The distributions overlap to varying degrees. So, you are likely to find a hybrid-- likely at the poor end of its distribution-- that sounds only slightly better than your Engel.
Add personal preference to this and you can get almost any result you want. Some folks prefer the "typical" lam sound.

I am no expert when it comes to wood-- not even close. I think, however that is is not true that:

"From a physics standpoint, the top is just piece of material with a good stiffness to weight ratio."

The problem is the word "just." The top is much more than that. What also counts are its resonant properties. My understanding has been that a laminate is constructed of layers oriented in perpendicular fashion with respect to grain. Further, my understanding has been that, while this enhances strength, it inhibits what are the usual desired resonance properties. I am happy to be disabused of these notions by those more knowledgeable than I.

It is possible, of course, to end up with a hybrid that is judged to sound poorly than a good lam. Now we're back to the beginning-- the distributions and personal preference.

Excellent analysis! Basses vary a great deal but this is how and where a generality is useful.

About those New American Standards: In spite of being laminated, the tops are also graduated in thickness. This is one of the qualities of carved basses that plywoods usually don't address. I think some of the Shen laminates are now made this way also.

It sounds to me that in this specific case that you can get a good deal of your invested value back by sticking with Upton Bass and I can't find a good reason, unless you want fully carved, to do otherwise. The carved top is what you really will hear more than the back and ribs. I think the ribs could be made of just about anything that is dimensionally stable and still wiggles. The back material will certainly color the tone of the instrument, but it is the top that makes or breaks it. Just my opinion, fellow members.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Excellent analysis! Basses vary a great deal but this is how and where a generality is useful.

About those New American Standards: In spite of being laminated, the tops are also graduated in thickness. This is one of the qualities of carved basses that plywoods usually don't address. I think some of the Shen laminates are now made this way also.

It sounds to me that in this specific case that you can get a good deal of your invested value back by sticking with Upton Bass and I can't find a good reason, unless you want fully carved, to do otherwise. The carved top is what you really will hear more than the back and ribs. I think the ribs could be made of just about anything that is dimensionally stable and still wiggles. The back material will certainly color the tone of the instrument, but it is the top that makes or breaks it. Just my opinion, fellow members.

Thanks. By the way, the ribs of the Uptons are not laminated. Rather, they are maple. So, the Upton hybrid differs from a fully-carved only with regard to the back being a laminate. The New Standards have maple ribs as well.

[fish slapper]

Last year when I was shopping for my bass, I was getting all freaked about the lam vs. hybrid vs. carved debate. In the end I got a Shen 100 as it was the best sounding bass within my budget. I remember at the time I was very tempted by an Eastman hybrid which I didn't care for the sound. I also played an Eastern European (Hungary or Bulgaria) shop bass that sounded decent to me but in a fit of honesty my luthier admitted it "wasn't a very good bass". But I was really tempted by the fact that could score a European carved bass for a little more than $2k.

Although I'm more than happy with my Shen, I played a Shen hybrid and remember being blown away by the tone. But the additional $900 was more than I had. Now that I've gotten a little playing time under my belt, I'm considering an upgrade in the next year or so. I think I will at least go hybrid but will consider carved again.

But more important will be the what will be the best tone I can get for my budget.

[robgrow]

I have come to really appreciate my Upton Hawkes Hybrid Bass. When I first got it, I was amazed by how responsive it is under the bow, particularly in the upper register where it really sings. At the same time, it can sound like a great vintage plywood bass for aggressive pizz playing where it's very punchy and focused. This bass is also exceptionally stable, and it has gone through several hot/cold, dry/wet cycles with no fuss whatsoever. It always plays and sounds great. I've found that an excellent hybrid bass like the Upton Hawkes is a real pleasure to own and play as well being very practical. While I also have a very nice fully-carved bass, I almost always play my Upton Hybrid now. So to me a hybrid bass is a very good thing.

[Ben Rolston]

Originally Posted by drurb

The New Standards have maple ribs as well.

Not anymore, I think.

[jallenbass]

What has been anyone's experience when a lam is amplified vs a hybrid. Do you really notice a difference soundwise?