I can't tell the difference between a good DB and a bad one

[Spanky123]

Bought a double bass recently in seoul, Korea, which I love. it was cheap. I played a lot of basses before deciding on this one and it sounded a lot better than basses that cost much more. It has occurred to me that I cannot tell the difference between a good bass and a bad bass. They all sound the same to me and to my ear my cheap bass sounds as good as a $20,000 bass. what am I missing?

[drurb]

I'll assume that the "cheap" and $20,000 basses you've heard and played are typical of the distribution one would expect to find. If that's true, then the fact that they all sound "as good" to you likely means that you haven't learned the dimensions of the sound along which to make the discriminations. So, I'd say that what you're missing is experience. It may take another experienced player pointing you toward the relevant "cues." Once those are learned, you might wonder how you ever missed them. This happens in so many arenas where experts make discriminations that lay people miss completely, e.g., loudspeakers, x-rays, and on and on.

[Spanky123]

Can you tell me what the "relevant cues" are? Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by drurb

I'll assume that the "cheap" and $20,000 basses you've heard and played are typical of the distribution one would expect to find. If that's true, then the fact that they all sound "as good" to you likely means that you haven't learned the dimensions of the sound along which to make the discriminations. So, I'd say that what you're missing is experience. It may take another experienced player pointing you toward the relevant "cues." Once those are learned, you might wonder how you ever missed them. This happens in so many arenas where experts make discriminations that lay people miss completely, e.g., loudspeakers, x-rays, and on and on.

[Damon Rondeau]

Bow or pizz? It's a world of difference in terms of really hearing the bass. The bow produces a long, continuous tone. Pizz produces a thump and then relatively rapid decay (with more or less mwah, depending.)

You might hear more differences, too, if you let somebody else do the playing whilst you sat back 10 or 20 feet and listened.

[hdiddy]

Cheaper basses fight back when you bow. You'll be trying to play some sort of exercise or passage and the bass will start to squawk easily. The quality of sound will be somewhat one-dimensional. Better basses have a richer and deeper sound.

Better basses will play a clear tone and be easy to hear your intonation. If your ears aren't tuned to pick this up, you may not tell the diff. When I went to a fully carved bass from my hybrid, it was almost a world of difference: it made it so much easier to get my intonation better.

Physically, construction will be a difference. Better basses will simply be easier to play in many different ways. Strings may provide a different sense and feel as well as also be less tense. You will also be paying for things in terms of longevity: less chances of seams popping open, better materials, better durability - although most ply basses are built like a tank. Speaking of tanks, weight of the bass will also figure into it's sound production. Cheaper basses tend to be heavier which also contributes to the tubbier tone.

[Roger Davis]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Speaking of tanks, weight of the bass will also figure into it's sound production. Cheaper basses tend to be heavier which also contributes to the tubbier tone.

Oh dear, my Upton Prof is the heaviest bass I've ever picked up and I rather like it.

[drurb]

I wish I could just tell you what to listen for. The "cues" are really the differences along the relevant dimensions of the sound that make basses sound different to experienced "listeners." Sorry, I know that probably doesn't help much. I can't sit here on the other side of the internet and describe the dimensions. They have to be pointed out "live." It's a bit easier to explain with something visual. You look at two x-rays, one normal and one not and you don't see any difference. The doc walks in and says, "Oh, there it is!" You have no idea WHICH differences in the complex picture are meaningful. The doc does. The doc knows the relevant dimensions and zeros right in on the differences. The doc could teach you what to look for by pointing it out to you across many different examples.

Given exposure to many basses over time, you can sure learn, by trial and error, to discern differences. Most of us don't even think about any of this. We just learn it and you will too. You can get there faster if someone else (an expert who knows what to listen for) narrows down for you which aspects of the sound are really key and picks examples of obvious differences.

Edit-- one way to make the differences more obvious:

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Bow or pizz? It's a world of difference in terms of really hearing the bass. The bow produces a long, continuous tone...

That's really the best I can do. Hope that helps, even if just a little.

Originally Posted by hdiddy

...If your ears aren't tuned to pick this up, you may not tell the diff.

Yes! It's that "tuning" that I'm trying to get at.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Roger Davis

Oh dear, my Upton Prof is the heaviest bass I've ever picked up and I rather like it.

Yeah... well that was probably the least accurate of my statements. I forget I've laid my hands on some pretty heavy yet beautiful sounding basses. I'm thinking that the weight factor is bigger for the cheapies - prolly cuz they're overbuilt.

IMO, the bigger thing here is that if you can hear yourself play better - you will play better. Kinda psycological like a self-feeding loop... The audience prolly can't tell a big difference unless they have a trained ear. If the instrument confirms your abilities to play well, it's one less thing in the way to getting to brass tacks of making good music. If the instrument is cheap, it will fight you all along the way and become a distraction during performance - unless you you could give a rats ass and are happy with whatever noise you get.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by Spanky123

Bought a double bass recently in seoul, Korea, which I love. it was cheap. I played a lot of basses before deciding on this one and it sounded a lot better than basses that cost much more. It has occurred to me that I cannot tell the difference between a good bass and a bad bass. They all sound the same to me and to my ear my cheap bass sounds as good as a $20,000 bass. what am I missing?

Experience. (and perhaps 'context'?)

You have a bass now, just play it. Take lessons, listen to other players in live situations, listen to recordings, practice, perform, gig, go live a musical life. Forget about 'gear' and focus on developing your musical skills.

5 years from now, hopefully after consistent learning, take other instruments for a spin and compare them to your current instrument. Find your thread here, and let everyone know what you think.

[notabene]

hDiddy said:

"The quality of sound will be somewhat one-dimensional."

This seems the biggie for me. A better bass sucks you in and makes it more attractive to practice, as the complexity of sound makes control over the complexities absorbing, and boredom doesn't set in. You can enjoy the sound as you are working at improving.

Also, I think (my opinion only) some great basses may not be that easy to play, and some crappy ones may be very easy to play.

Steven

[Spanky123]

Thanks to all who responded to this. I have not gotten to bowing yet, so I am strictly a pizz guy so far, with an interest in improving my jazz chops and for now probably adept enough to get myself into a bluegrass band or something of that nature (I'm new to double bass but have been playing guitar all my life).

The particular bass I bought in Seoul cost about $1000 USD. The front is a very nice piece of solid spruce (pressed, not carved) and the back and sides appear to be solid, also. The tone is quite clear, the volume is surprisingly loud, and it has a low e that I can feel in my chest, unlike a lot of more expensive basses I tried when shopping for this one. I have been listening to many basses and my ear still tells me that this is a really nice sounding instrument. I am sure I will develop further distinctions in time, causing me to wish for a much more expensive instrument, but for now I guess I should just count my blessings that I am happy with what I have.

[powerbass]

I just purchased a used Thompson hybrid, brought it to my bass lesson and my teacher pulled out a tape measure. The measurements are pretty close to his 100+ yr old Prescott yet they sound so totally different. All that time and age has deepened the tone on the Prescott. To me a good sounding bass has a voice and a soul that speaks to you

[drurb]

Originally Posted by powerbass

I just purchased a used Thompson hybrid, brought it to my bass lesson and my teacher pulled out a tape measure. The measurements are pretty close to his 100+ yr old Prescott yet they sound so totally different. All that time and age has deepened the tone on the Prescott. To me a good sounding bass has a voice and a soul that speaks to you

Time may have improved it but I'm betting that Prescott sounded much like it does now even when it was new. Although we won't be around to know, I'm guessing that in 100 years the Thompson won't sound anything like the Prescott does now. There's way more to the sound than the measurements, of course.

[nicechuckh]

Spanky, sounds like you got a bass that you are quite fond of at a very good price. Good for you. Enjoy

[Spanky123]

Just one little thing, though. I had the fingerboard planed and the luthier said he sanded and sanded it but there is still buzz on the g string around 5th to 8th position. I get the impression this is not uncommon. Should I ask him to sand it some more, live with it, or replace the fingerboard? (Neck isn't ebony, requires varnish if I do).

Originally Posted by nicechuckh

Spanky, sounds like you got a bass that you are quite fond of at a very good price. Good for you. Enjoy

[drurb]

Hmmm... sounds like you need to have the fingerboard properly dressed. It would need varnish? Is it an "ebonized" board? I wouldn't just live with it. If you can swing it, have a quality ebony board fitted and dressed.

[Spanky123]

Originally Posted by drurb

Hmmm... sounds like you need to have the fingerboard properly dressed. It would need varnish? Is it an "ebonized" board? I wouldn't just live with it. If you can swing it, have a quality ebony board fitted and dressed.

The buzz is not terrible. I am not sure what an ebonized board is. The luthier told me it was not ebony and when he sanded it, it needed to be stained afterwards. I wonder how much it would cost to replace the finger board. I see ebony fingerboards on ebay for reasonable prices. I am not sure whether I should tell him to keep sanding. he's a good luthier, I think, and he says he sanded it as much as possible.

[dhsierra1]

"ebonized" means a lighter colored hardwood stained to resemble ebony. Done all the time, even w/lighter colored versions of ebony.

I agree w/DrUrb, a good dressed ebony fingerboard makes a big difference, I have a pretty crappy UB but the fingerboard is what makes is tolerable until I can get a better instrument. Sounds like you have a pretty nice one.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Spanky123

I wonder how much it would cost to replace the finger board. I see ebony fingerboards on ebay for reasonable prices.

IMO... replacing a fingerboard on a $1k instrument is not worth it. The bigger cost of such an act will be labor, not material. I'm guessing that it will be at least $200 in labor alone if not more. Play it til you get fed up with it and go to something else.

Another thing about telling the diff between good vs. bad. If you're doing just pizz, you may not notice anything that bad but once you start to play with other people, you'll start to see how hard it may be to hear yourself and your intonation. Better basses speak clearer in environments that have more noise and stuff going on.

[Spanky123]

I'll see how it goes. I am also wondering if the buzzing might plausibly stop as the instrument "breaks in". It is less than a year old and I imagine a small amount of shift may effect the buzz factor (negatively or positively).

If more expensive instruments tend to speak clearer and have greater definition in a mix, I would imagine this is because the tone is less muddy. I selected this instrument because, to my ear, this DB sounded more focused than the others I played. I may record a short clip of it on my camcorder if I have time this weekend. I will post it if I do.

As for it being inexpensive, since I bought it in Asia, I think I paid a fairly good price for it and to buy something where I live now (Down Under) would be at least three times the price for a comparable instrument. Hence, it may be worth it to replace the fingerboard if I like the instrument otherwise.

Has anyone ever bought a fingerboard off Ebay?

Originally Posted by hdiddy

IMO... replacing a fingerboard on a $1k instrument is not worth it. The bigger cost of such an act will be labor, not material. I'm guessing that it will be at least $200 in labor alone if not more. Play it til you get fed up with it and go to something else.

Another thing about telling the diff between good vs. bad. If you're doing just pizz, you may not notice anything that bad but once you start to play with other people, you'll start to see how hard it may be to hear yourself and your intonation. Better basses speak clearer in environments that have more noise and stuff going on.