Immortal bass

merefox · #1 01-31-2009, 12:32 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z4S9v3ct1E

Carbon fiber instrument....

What do you think about this?.

http://www.luisandclark.com

Andrew McGregor · #2 01-31-2009, 03:33 AM

Had a brief go with one. Lots of potential in the idea, not really sure if that implementation works well. It has a kind of boomy tone, but that might just need a bit of getting used to.

Co. · #3 01-31-2009, 05:21 AM

That "boominess" is might not be related to the carbon fiber itself, but other aspects of construction. I recently played a Willi-Paul Balsereit carbon fiber bass that had a big round sound, that was most noticable incredibly clear.

GerardSamija · #4 01-31-2009, 01:10 PM

I think somewhere else in these forums a few of us have expressed opinions on the carbon fiber bass, but can't find where. In short, my opinions after trying (I'm NOT a bassist so take this with a grain of salt - though some incredible bassists of my acquaintance reinforce my take on the sound) and examining an example at Long & McQuade are as follows:

- The f-holes are joined above and below at the wings, rather than cut through; this is severely restrictive of belly motion and perhaps explains part of the strange, tubby sound.

- The bassbar is black-painted, not sure of what material but probably wood of some sort. It is very rough, whiskered as though sawn but not smoothed at all - maybe just the one I examined, or perhaps the general rule. It is very slim compared to what I would regard as a properly proportioned bassbar, in the middle where I could see it (the bass is so black inside as to make casual interior inspection in a store impossible - I hope to have one in the shop sometime so I can use my USB webcam and some lights to better have a look), so this too seems to offer an explanation for the weak sound. More mass needed in the middle, then tapering sharply outwards, tends to produce a more powerful sound.

- The mass of the thing seems excessive. In general, though there have been exceptions, a bass that heavy tends to play little better than a waterlogged tree. A lighter bass tends to be more responsive. I don't understand why it has to be so very heavy, but then again, I did make a fiberglass and epoxy violin case once... rather a heavy little thing, but I could stand on it and bounce without deforming it at all. So a good bass for sledding down mountains?

I understand that one of the partners is a fine cellist and from my own brief playing of an L & C carbon cello it seems the instrument is really rather decent sounding. I mean no disrespect to the makers as regards their intentions. But the bass is a mistake, in my opinion, and wants a considerable amount or re-engineering before it's ready for use. There are some really good ideas here, and a near-indestructible bass would be a fantastic boon to traveling players, especially those using a van over bumpy roads. For air travel I suspect the size and non-removable neck present similar problems to other basses, and the weight may also be a problem. A client who tried it was in communication with the maker, but it seems that got nowhere - we were hoping for a dialogue on the design, and especially as regards a removable neck; something which would offer a profound improvement in portability and should be easier by far than with a wooden instrument.

Andrew McGregor · #5 01-31-2009, 01:50 PM

I actually got the impression that the L&C bassbar was carbon too; that whiskery texture is just because the interior of the instrument wasn't bagged, so still has some CF fabric texture. That would imply the bassbar could well have some loose fibers hanging off it.

BTW, we happened to be looking at the same bass, as I end up in Vancouver from time to time with work travel.

GerardSamija · #6 01-31-2009, 02:14 PM

Ah, that makes sense, as there'd be no simple way to get the whiskers cleaned up through the f-holes. Not a lot of complicated ways either, without access to wee little robots. Okay, then the lack of height on the bar's middle makes sense too, as with a CF bar there'd be little need for the thickness one uses with a spruce bar for strength. But there's a mass issue where sound is concerned, namely that a certain mass in the middle of the bar is essential for the production of a decent sound, at least this is normally the case. I'll stick with my opinion that the weak sound of this bass has at least something to do with the unconventional bassbar.

mheintz · #7 01-31-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Co.

That "boominess" is might not be related to the carbon fiber itself, but other aspects of construction. I recently played a Willi-Paul Balsereit carbon fiber bass that had a big round sound, that was most noticable incredibly clear.

I've never heard of Willi-Paul Balsereit. What's the story? Where did you play the bass?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

For air travel I suspect the size and non-removable neck present similar problems to other basses, and the weight may also be a problem. A client who tried it was in communication with the maker, but it seems that got nowhere - we were hoping for a dialogue on the design, and especially as regards a removable neck; something which would offer a profound improvement in portability and should be easier by far than with a wooden instrument.

I couldn't agree more. Without the removable neck, they are really missing their target audience.

Cosi at least has a removable-neck model. I've never played it.

Co. · #8 01-31-2009, 03:26 PM

I played an older carbon fiber bass of Balsereit that is in posession of the Musikhochschule Köln. Since a couple of weeks it is used as the teaching bass here. As far as I know Balsereit is collaborating with a carbon factory and is constantly testing and researching. I personally own a carbon fiber bow, that he made, which I like a lot, and the pickup he makes is one of the most natural sounding, still usable at any volume.
Of course its cool to know, that you can make musical instruments out of carbon fiber, that work at least as good, as their traditionally made counterparts, but the point here is, that the price for good tone wood is increasing every year, while the the cost to produce quality carbon instruments is going to decrease every year. So right now he can make a very, very good carbon bass for almost halve the price, a comparable new handmade instrument would cost.
Whats also very attractive is, that because of the higher stiffness of carbon, compared to wood, it should be possible to make a thin but stable top, which could solve the problem of many 5 stringers sounding unresponsive and "narrow".

violann · #9 01-31-2009, 05:12 PM

Does anyone have an idea of what the bass actually weighs? I played one of the violas and it was very light in weight, and I think the 'cello is fairly light for its size also.

J.C. Lagarde · #10 01-24-2010, 08:39 AM

Hello,

Willi-Paul Balsereit sold my COSI basses, and I think you have been played on my instruments.

If you want to test it again, I will soon come to the US to the ASTA conference (february 17-20, Santa Clara, CA), or you can go to David Gage's, they have some of my basses.

I make all my instruments with my hands, there is no machine producing thousands of basses... Every instrument is a unique work.

With best regards,

stranded horse · #11 01-24-2010, 09:15 AM

How do they justify the price though?
I don't know about the price for carbon fiber, but the production process look incredibly easy compared to one made from wood.

J.C. Lagarde · #12 01-24-2010, 09:36 AM

I don't know how other makers justify their prices...

I only know that I spend several days to make my instruments, that the carbon fiber I use is a special selected carbon fiber, etc. and that I need several weeks to finish an instrument.

I do not use carbon fibers like on boats, or cars : it doesn't sound enough.

I have seen on youtube the movie about the way they (L&C) produce their instruments. I don't make my basses like that, and I think they don't explain everything. I don't know what their price is.

I make my instruments, here in France for more than 20 years now, and I think I may have learned some tips

Here, I can give you the name of almost 50 schools using my instruments, or give you the name of musicians (without endorsement!) playing on my basses if you want to ask them directly what their feeling is.

To conclude, my price is really simple : it is composed by the time I spend making the bass, the price of materials, transportation and insurance. And that's all

Best regards,

stranded horse · #13 01-24-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Lagarde

I don't know how other makers justify their prices...

I only know that I spend several days to make my instruments, that the carbon fiber I use is a special selected carbon fiber, etc. and that I need several weeks to finish an instrument.

I do not use carbon fibers like on boats, or cars : it doesn't sound enough.

I have seen on youtube the movie about the way they (L&C) produce their instruments. I don't make my basses like that, and I think they don't explain everything. I don't know what their price is.

I make my instruments, here in France for more than 20 years now, and I think I may have learned some tips

Here, I can give you the name of almost 50 schools using my instruments, or give you the name of musicians (without endorsement!) playing on my basses if you want to ask them directly what their feeling is.

To conclude, my price is really simple : it is composed by the time I spend making the bass, the price of materials, transportation and insurance. And that's all

Best regards,

Yes, I was refering to the video about L&C too. I'm not a luthier, but the way they do it, it looks to me like they can finish an instrument in less than 3 days, and make multiple instruments at the same time. Yet they charge $12000 for their double bass.

Square Bear · #14 01-24-2010, 10:14 AM

i didn't know they charge that much. 12,000 seems pretty outrageous.

MPU · #15 01-24-2010, 11:11 AM

Like with any instrument if it sounds like it costs too much there's always the possibility of trying to make one yourself. I guess somewhere in the process you'll find out why it costs so much. It may look simple but I'm sure there is more than just what's shown to make a great sounding bass.
I've made around 20 bass guitars and now when I'm planning to make a double bass I feel like I know nothing about making any kind of instruments.
Marko

J.C. Lagarde · #16 01-24-2010, 11:23 AM

Waou, 12000$ ! Are you sure ?

I sell my COSI basses at US$5990, and my "Chase" model (best one) at US$9990.

I don't know why there is such a difference, and my instruments are all made in France.

And I make 1/16 size at US$2550...

GerardSamija · #17 01-24-2010, 11:50 AM

When I looked at the L&C a couple of years ago they were asking $12,000. A client recently visited and found the price had gone up considerably... if memory serves the figure was now $15,000. But I've not visited the store to see that price tag for myself yet. Even if it were still $12,000, yeah, a lot of money for what it sounds like, especially considering how few basses are selling these days in the $2,000+ market.

stranded horse · #18 01-24-2010, 12:10 PM

IMHO these basses would have a considerable market share if they were mass produced (hey, except for final setup you dont really need a luthier from what I've seen) and offered as a cheap quality alternative to wooden instruments.