Interesting Craigslist

[edmidlifecrisis]

Hey Guys....I strayed over here from the bass guitar forums.

I don't know anything about this, but there is an old upright for sale on the local Craigslist here in South Florida. Just a heads up, it ain't mine.....looks cool, though....

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/msg/1020257628.html

[drurb]

$1800 for an old plywood. Hmm. There are some well-designed great playing new ones that can be had for less.

[400$Bass]

Originally Posted by drurb

$1800 for an old plywood. Hmm. There are some well-designed great playing new ones that can be had for less.

I'd say back in about 1974 I was in and out of Arthur's Music Store in Indianapolis IN. At that time they had a new Kay bass standing kind of straight ahead as you come in the front door. Anyway the price on this new Kay bass was $495.00

Now according to the Net the Kay co. stopped making double basses in 1969. With all of that being said, is it possible that Kay bass was actually a five year old or more bass that had been lurking about waiting to be sold 5 years or longer after it was built?

Some time in about the early 1980's it seemed any old beat up bass was bringing a $1,000.00 or so that was the talk. At that time I used to think..."man that new one at Arthur's was only $495.00 just a few years ago....hhhmmm? I should have bought it!" I also wondered at the time if A Bass was worth more if it was all beat up, scraped up, had the neck broken in two then reglued etc. As that seemed to be the case when I seen the few for sale that folks wanted $1.000.00 or more.

Now perhaps these old ruff basses were worth every dime they were asking, I don't know. I do remember they were all Kay and the one in '74 for sale was a NEW KAY for only $495.00 hence it didn't make cent$ to buy the old ruff one for a thousand dollars plus. So I just lost interest in getting an URB for about 25 years.

Funny how the cost of buying something can just "shut" your mind down.

[Ed Fuqua]

I also would have to think that the label saying "Reproduction" in English places its build AFTER WWII, which is late 40's early 50's. The second thing you gotta worry about is appropriation of an unlicensed name, the number of BSOs coming out of China and Korea with German and Italian names attached to them is staggering...

Caveat emptor.

[edmidlifecrisis]

I knew you guys would know if it was a good deal or a scam....I wouldn't know a good upright from bad, any more than I could fly an F-16....

[Gearhead43]

$1800 is a bit on the steep side pricewise I think. It won't sell for that much anyway right now with the economy the way it is.

I have been seeing alot of nice music equipment and instruments for sale, and alot of folks are realizing they must bring their prices down for it to sell.

I have heard some 40s-50s german laminates that were great. I would like to score a nice one some day.

[Michael Glynn]

I wouldn't count out this bass at that price. Sure there are new plywoods that cost the same or less, but there are new plywoods that cost a lot more, too. With plywood basses, just like carved basses, there is a wide range of quality. I've played some older German plywood basses that sounded pretty darn good. And they are usually not selling for $3000+ like many old Kays.

I think Herman Lowendall was a trade name, like Pfretzschner, Morelli and Juzek. That is, Hermann (if he even existed) wasn't making the basses, but the firm produced a wide range of instruments for the export market. From what I've heard, Lowendall factory instruments were pretty decent.

Also, I'm not sure that the fact that "reproduction" is in English would make it post-WWII. A lot of instruments from Germany were exported to the US before WWII with English labels.

[dchan]

^ I can't tell from the grainy pictures in the CL ad, but the bass looks pretty new to me - it's in fantastic condition compared to other older German plywood basses that I've seen (including mine, from 1969). No big scratches, no dings, nothing. Hmmm......

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

I wouldn't count out this bass at that price. Sure there are new plywoods that cost the same or less, but there are new plywoods that cost a lot more, too.

So? Yes, some cost less and some cost more. My point was that there are very high quality plys that cost the same or less than that bass on CL. From what I can tell, it has no special quality to it. Of course, one would want to hear a bass to decide this for sure but, c'mon, there's a limit to how good any ply is going to sound. I'd feel safe counting that one out at $1800. Put another way, if I had $1800 to spend on a ply, I wouldn't be going after that one.

[Michael Glynn]

Originally Posted by drurb

So? Yes, some cost less and some cost more. My point was that there are very high quality plys that cost the same or less than that bass on CL. From what I can tell, it has no special quality to it. Of course, one would want to hear a bass to decide this for sure but, c'mon, there's a limit to how good any ply is going to sound. I'd feel safe counting that one out at $1800. Put another way, if I had $1800 to spend on a ply, I wouldn't be going after that one.

Fair enough. If I was in the market and lived in the area, I would certainly give it a try to see how it compared. I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up liking a new one (Shen, Upton, etc.) more in that price range, but it never hurts to shop around.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

Also, I'm not sure that the fact that "reproduction" is in English would make it post-WWII. A lot of instruments from Germany were exported to the US before WWII with English labels.

A lot were exported, but no one was producing for export. Labels for basses prior to '46 were in German, labels from the immediate post war era generally had some (again English language) demarcation of the "zone" (American/English/French) in which they were produced.

[Michael Glynn]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

A lot were exported, but no one was producing for export. Labels for basses prior to '46 were in German, labels from the immediate post war era generally had some (again English language) demarcation of the "zone" (American/English/French) in which they were produced.

I've seen pictures on (supposed) pre-1946 instruments from Germany with English labels. For example:

Here is a Morelli Ken Smith sold. He states it is from ca. 1900-1920 and the label is in English:
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...orelliBass.htm

Here is a Pfretzschner violin supposedly from around 1920 with an English label:
http://www.prices4antiques.com/music...e-D9862455.htm

On this page there is a Morelli violin, supposedly pre-1940 with an English label. The entry on this violin specifically states that, "Morelli violins made for the American market were fitted with labels written in English."
http://www.wichitaband.com/violin.html#germany

All three labels include the word "reproduction."

Here's a website with more info on labels. The part of interest says:

"The McKinley Tariff Act of 1891 required that items imported to the U.S. be marked with their country of origin. In 1914 the act was revised to require the words "Made in" to also be used. Finally, in 1921 the act was revised yet again to require that all country names occurred in English. Thus an object labeled simply "Bavaria" of "Nippon" would likely (but not absolutely) be from some time between 1891 and 1914. "Made in Italia" might be before 1921.

It seems likely that any item marked "Made in Japan" was probably made or imported after 1921. Prior to 1921, they might have been labeled "Made in Nippon." We also know that after WWII and during the US occupation of Japan, items that were made for export were marked "Made in Occupied Japan" or perhaps "Occupied Japan."

Similarly, items labeled "Made in Germany" are likely manufactured between 1921 and WWII. After partition the designations became "Made in West (or East) Germany" and remained so until the reunification in the 1990's."

[Ed Fuqua]

I can certainly be as wrong as the next person, but I can't really read much from the label in the bass. What I can seem to read is the first word, but is it ARBEIT or ARTIST?

[Michael Glynn]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I can certainly be as wrong as the next person, but I can't really read much from the label in the bass. What I can seem to read is the first word, but is it ARBEIT or ARTIST?

You can certainly be as wrong as the next person, but I challenge you to be as wrong, as often, as me.

Seriously though, which label are you talking about? Ken's Morelli?

[Ed Fuqua]

yeah in the foto, i saved it and tried to blow it up, but the resolution is pretty bad...

[Michael Glynn]

Yeah, it's hard to read, but below the picture Ken says it is labeled:

Artist Deluxe Model (hand written script)
Andreas Morelli (printed in script)
Handmade Reproduction (printed in script)
Antonio Stradivarius (hand written script)
Trade Mark Registered

He doesn't seem to translate some other labels on other basses, so I assume that it is a literal transcription.

Also, on the website with the Morelli violin the label is described as reading:

“Exposition Model (written in script) / Andreas Morelli / hand-made reproduction / Franciso Gagliano (written in script) / anno 1741 (written in script) / trade mark registered “

Other labels described on that page are untranslated, so again I assume that it is written in English. (plus there is their statement that, "Morelli violins made for the American market were fitted with labels written in English.")

[Ed Fuqua]

This would appear to be English, for all intents and purposes. Since I barely speak it (comprehensively anyway), I may not be the best judge....


mea maxima culpa...