Jerome Thiboville-Lamy

bassmanbrent · #1 04-05-2011, 06:45 PM

Hey all,
I'm wondering what people know about the above maker. More specifically if anyone has any thoughts on how to tell a JTL shop bass from one that was individually made. I'm also interested in anyone's thoughts on the value of both categories of instruments (basses only, that is) along with anything else people can think of that might be relevant. Thanks!

benharrisfan · #2 04-05-2011, 09:03 PM

A lot of French shop basses from the 19th century/early 20th century will try to be sold by shops under names like Thiboville-Lamy, so watch out! The bass might be a good instrument but the fake attribution will make the price go up...

bassmanbrent · #3 04-05-2011, 09:14 PM

Thanks for the heads up! Just curious though: are the shops being fast and loose with the fake attribution, or are there fake labels out there too?

benharrisfan · #4 04-06-2011, 05:07 AM

It's mostly fast and loose stuff. For example, pretty much every French bass seems to be a "Jacquet" even though Xavier Jacquet stamped his basses on the bass bar X.JACQUET and you rarely see any basses that have that stamp. Of course the way that a lot of these French luthiers worked were with multiple people on one bass so you have a lot of basses that are from the workshops of both Gustav Bernadel and Charles Gand and that's not necessarily a bad thing - but you can tell which basses had more work put in and the makers generally marked their fine work with a label!

PaulCannon · #5 04-06-2011, 05:39 AM

To be fair, very few shops will knowingly lie about their inventory. The threat of lawsuits is a great deterrent. If a shop is selling a "Jacquet" bass at a Jacquet price, ask if they would be willing to sell it with a certificate of authenticity. If they are unwilling to sign a certificate, it means they are not certain of the instrument's pedigree and ought to lower their price accordingly.

Furthermore, there is a big difference between an instrument being sold as a "X. Jacquet" and "Jacquet school." Many instruments were made to look like Jacquets and it's not unfair to label them as such.

Jason Sypher · #6 04-06-2011, 07:27 AM

I've played a few TL basses and they seem solid but not spectacular.

Mike Arnopol · #7 04-06-2011, 10:00 AM

JTL basses are shop made Mirecourt instruments. It's funny, but 20 years ago JTL basses were considered pedestrian bottom of the rung Mirecourt basses. They typically have thick tops and are a bit nasal sounding. It's funny that I see them going for over $20k. In the early 90's I bought one in London for about $3500. That was a good a good buy but it was not uncommon to see them go for $5k. To be honest, I think that the big handmade German 19th century basses sound better than the typical commercial Mirecourt bass. (any Jacquet included as well as lower rung shop made Claudot and others) My new Golia bass sounds MUCH better and at about $15k.

bassmanbrent · #8 04-06-2011, 01:21 PM

Thanks for all the feedback! I don't mean to be argumentative, but I have been told that there are JTL shop basses out there, as well as ones made by individual makers for JTL as was the common practice in Mirecourt at the time. I was also told that the labels were different in the two grades of instruments, but not sure how. Any other thoughts out there?

LouisF · #9 04-06-2011, 02:27 PM

Steve has a pretty informative link here:

French Upright bass

Mike Arnopol · #10 04-06-2011, 03:17 PM

It's totally true that there were definite tiers at the shops. Take Claudot. There were gamba flatback pretty cheap basses. There were viloin shape flatbacks and round back flatbacks. The Gand and Bernadel families has basses from gamba flabacks to lion head carved backs. Just like today. Let's take KC Strings. I don't know their basses, but they offer hand made shop basses at different levels. The top basses are likely built more by the top maker and use the best woods. I have never seen a Thibouville-Lamy bass that was in the same catagory as the better Mirecourt makers better instruments. Their shop was regarded as low to midrange instruments. This is not to say that someone came in the shop and commisioned a top quality bass. It's just that in my travels (I've seen a lot of basses) I've never seen a JTL bass that was any better than run of the mill.

massimo · #11 04-06-2011, 03:33 PM

I live in Paris where you can always find some used JTL on the market. Their price is between 5k and 12k euro, price depending more on the craftmanship quality than on the sound quality. They are decent made basses that in my opinion are overpriced but i wouldn't say there are faked ones around considering that i don't see interest in faking a fabric instruments. The sound quality is typical french: clear and sometimes nasal and too bright ( naturally there are some of those that sound very good , especially for pizz players that like a direct dry clear sound with lots of sustain ) Normally they also have large shoulders (not good if you play a lot in tp). I never heard of a Thibouville made by the luthier himself.

Mike Arnopol · #12 04-06-2011, 05:29 PM

Tony Houska at The Contrabass Shoppe in London has a typical flaback gamba cornered one. Asking 20, 000 British. Now they did regraduate the top, but all in all, an absurd price.

arnoldschnitzer · #13 04-07-2011, 06:01 AM

Anthony Manzo (DC) owns a magnificent lion's-head topped JTL that is among the finest French basses I have ever seen or heard. The wood, workmanship and sound are all absolutely top-notch. I believe it may have been built for a maker's competition, based on the label. Like many of the French makers of the time period, the quality of their instruments was on several tiers.

benharrisfan · #14 04-12-2011, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

To be fair, very few shops will knowingly lie about their inventory.

PaulCannon · #15 04-12-2011, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benharrisfan

Do you disagree?

Mike Arnopol · #16 04-12-2011, 09:13 AM

I know many instances of untruths. Years ago a certain shop in Long Island bought a bass from a kid as a German bass and sold it as a papered Italian. I was at a big dealer in Italy with my wife. She was having coffee with the wife of the dealer. There was an open drawer that my wife casually peeked into. It was full of antique looking labels. Most of the dealers talked about here have the best intentions, but there are always unscrupulous ones. One Italian bass expert said to me "the only way I would believe a label is if I were looking over the luthier's shoulder when he put it in."
A funny story. When I went to Italy a few years ago to pick up my Golia bass Luciano and I put a label over his that showed it to be a 5 year old Chinese bass. I know that this is dishonest, but there are horror stories of guys getting screwed by Italian customs and being forced to pay exorbitant duty fees. And often times they make up the amount of the fees on the spot. Anyhow, fellow TB'er Eric Hochberg came over to see the bass. He said (with concern in his voice) "Mike, you need to check this out." He showed me the label thinking that I had gotten ripped off and bought a student Chinese basss!

bassmanbrent · #17 04-12-2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Anthony Manzo (DC) owns a magnificent lion's-head topped JTL that is among the finest French basses I have ever seen or heard. The wood, workmanship and sound are all absolutely top-notch. I believe it may have been built for a maker's competition, based on the label. Like many of the French makers of the time period, the quality of their instruments was on several tiers.

Thanks for this Arnold. Do you remember any details about the label? Just curious...

PaulCannon · #18 04-12-2011, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

I know many instances of untruths. Years ago...

How many years? I realize this was common practice at one time, but given how quickly a shop's reputation can be ruined today it seems to be a poor business decision. Customers are far more savvy today, and far more willing to litigate. The amounts of money at stake are no longer peanuts, either. When a misattribution can cost somebody tens of thousands of dollars, fussing with funny labels or fake certificates isn't really an option.

To clarify, I am only speaking about real shops with real experts buying and selling instruments and putting their name and reputation on the line. Of course there are scams all over eBay and craigslist, but that is a different situation.

Mike Arnopol · #19 04-12-2011, 03:17 PM

Let's take the Long Island shop. Maybe it's just me, but I find it a bit odd that all of the basses online have maker's attributions and dates. And likely papers. Actually I think it's worse these days than years ago. Basses are easier I think to apply random makers. Most have been abused, cut down etc.. As much as Ken Smith can be abrasive I find that he does his best as far as attributing makers. In Europe if it's super old and beat to crap it's a DeSalo. If not quite as beat, a Testore. The funniest thing is the older papers like Wurlitzer ( I might be mistaken--just going from distant memory) and guys like Fantoni. Most in the know guys these days wouldn't put any credence in any contemporary papers. Because they are typically written by the guy selling the bass. And who is going to dispute it? Two basses in Chicago for instance. One has papers from the 60's calling it a DiSalo. This bass is EXREMELY crudely made. Gamba corners. And carved back. I am definitely not an expert but I am a bass geek who's traveled a lot. I have seen 3 basses attributed to DiSalo. Two in museums and one in the hands of a player that I trust. All were flat back, violin cornered and surprisingly refined in their construction. The other bass had papers from the 60's attributing it to Maggini. This bass was very clear light amber varnish. Gamba corners. And also carved back, with an obvious German trellis design in the upper back purfling. Definitely a German bass. But a reputable company issued papers calling it a Maggini! I think that a lot of dealers really try their best, but as the prices of antique basses is skyrocketing the darker aspects of human nature come into play more.

Mike Arnopol · #20 04-12-2011, 03:29 PM

Hey guys--I'm a real computer dummy but how do you post quotes from another post?
Paul---you were saying that with the money at stake how can people casually apply attributions or mis-labels? IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. If you have Kolstein papers calling a bass a Ceruti who is going to dispute it? If you can get enough people to believe it's a Ceruti, then it is. What I'm saying is that attributions are OPINIONS and the bigger the name of the opinion the more credence it has. While there are generally agreed criteria as far as styles and construction methods it really comes down to subjective opinions. In violins the criteria is more specific and agreed upon. Which is why there are great forgeries in violin making. With basses it's not the luthiers who were trying to fool someone. It's greedy contemporary dealers. Most dealers I think are honest people. But there has been much misinformation done mistakingly by honest dealers, too.