Just started shopping for a DB

[sevenyearsdown]

First - I read some of the newbie stuff, and did some searching here first...so please hold off on flaming me for me questions.

I just started the search for a DB (been playing bass guitar for years). We have a local luthier in my area that was recommended by a pro. I stopped in to tlak to them and view thier inventory. However, I still have some questions about cost that I would like to ask the experienced guys here. Please keep in mind that I have just started this process and don't know a whole lot at this point.

They had some old (50's) used Kays, and an Englehardt. All of less inexpensive models he sells are used, but he restores and sets up all of them before they go up for sale. I did look at thenm, and it was clear that the fingerboards were all dressed, new bridges, etc. Again - I don't know much, but it looked like nice work. I believe these were plywood basses in the range of 1500 - 2000 dollars.

I have checked on some other sites like Gollihur music and found brand new ones for cheaper. So here are my questions:

1. Does a 50's Kay or similar hold a good value? In general would one be a better choice than a brand new one? Should I be drooling over a 1954 Kay, but I just don't know it yet?

2. Does a brand new DB require any expensive setups that would offset the cost of me just buying a nice used instrument?

I just want to get a better idea of what a fair price is given the amount of work that these guys are putting into these instruments to make them playable again.

Thx in adavance.

[wineaux]

Seven,

First, welcome.

I have a thing for vintage plywood basses (I have a '34 Jaeger and a '42 Kay). Not everyone shares that "thing" and that's fine.

You are fortunate to have a luthier nearby who has a selection of basses. Play them and listen. If you can, take an experienced player or a teacher with you. (I know, because you've read the newbie files, that you realize the importance of having a teacher right off the bat). You might find a bass that speaks to you or at least has a sound you like so you know what to look for if you continue shopping.

If you end up looking at a new bass, that's cool, too. Keep in mind, though, that some new basses are set up for you before they leave the shop and some are not, so there might be an extra expense.

Happy hunting. Tell us how you make out.

[clink]

Newbie,
Sorry, I couldn't resist......

It appears that you have done some good research into the process of choosing a suitable bass. Getting a recommendation from a pro and starting with a luthier rather than a guitar store is surely the right thing to do. You are well served. Welcome to the Dark Side.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZBe...eature=related

Sorry again.

Depending on your needs, an old Kay can be a very nice bass. They are often very good pizz basses and good workhorses. The neck joint can be problematic and they usually have overly thin necks which can inhibit proper technique. Each bass is unique, so judge accordingly.

Basses usually improve with age, so I would advise playing some of the older ones and choosing the best of the bunch. Also, buying a bass without playing it is normally a bad idea. Yes, a good setup can be a few hundred dollars.

Good luck to you.

[shadygrove]

$1500-2000 is a reasonable price range for a used Kay that has been gone through and set up. Most vintage Kays I see go for more unless they need repairs. I'd expect them to keep going up in price as they aren't making more, unlike the Englehardt which although supposedly built the same does not have the same mojo as the vintage instruments.

No knock on Bob's stuff. I've bought accessories from him and was very happy with quality and service, but note the Englehardt basses are drop shipped from the factory so in addition to the shipping will likely need a few hundred dollars in setup.

Every bass is different even when they are mass produced. Since you've done your homework, I'm sure you've seen this over and over, but it bears repeating... you need to play the actual bass you are considering buying to know what you will get. Not the same brand or model, but hold it in your hands and play it and listen while someone else plays it.

Also consider the advantage of having a relationship with your local luthier when it comes time for repairs, maintenance and tweaking all the little things that can and will eventually go wrong.

Good luck with your search and hope you find a bass that you will be happy to play for many years!

[sevenyearsdown]

Ha - you guys can call me a newb...'cause I am right now (and will be for a while). I just wanted to avoid the "use the search feature" and "read all of the posts in the newbie link" bashing.

Seriously though - thanks to everyone giving advice. The site is a great resource.

[CamMcIntyre]

1. If it's setup, I'd be tempted. The school owned bass I played in high school was a Kay S1. Other than the sky high action c/o a fixed bridge, it sounded great. Thumpy & loud. Not the easiest to play, but thumpy and loud.

2. It depends on who/where you buy it from. A bass purchased from certain dealers will come already setup. I'm thinking of like buying from A440 here in Chicago, Upton-the basses will be setup. If it's a drop shipped bass-it will need a setup.

Welcome to the DB side. It's a very great place-just very different from the BG side. If you get hooked like I have, you will start to play bass guitar less and less. I start my next bass guitar gig in early February. I haven't had one since August.

all the best.

[MDEbass]

Yeah....a properly set-up Kay will probably be your best bet for your price range. If you ever feel like selling it later on, it's value will go up over time. Good luck

[sevenyearsdown]

The luthier I talked to restores and does complete setups on all of them before he puts them out for sale, so it sounds like I might be on the right path......now I have to start selling of some of the electrics to A. Make room, and B. Raise funds. Good thing I have a lot of gigs coming up!

BTW - I guess I would be pre-newb right now since I've yet to purchase one.

[drurb]

I'm going to offer an opposing opinion-- a strong one. If you have a thing for Kays and Engels, well fine. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many others, Kays sell for what they do largely as a result of their status as examples of no-longer-made bits of Americana. I don't buy basses as investments, I buy them to play. In my opinion, the design of a Kay is lacking along several dimensions. The neck profile, neck projection, neck-block construction, quality of parts (fingerboard, tuners, glue-on volutes, tailpiece) and overall sound fall far short of what can be had in a brand new laminate bass. There are some rare examples of especially acceptable sounding old Kays out there but, as a rule, they are, in my opinion, nothing to write home about, much less drool over.

For me, the skinny neck profile is a huge drawback. I have found, as have many others, that, if you wish to play with the textbook left-hand "claw," then a skinny neck promotes fatigue. You have to consider that Kay/Engel necks are quite a bit thinner than what is typical. There are good reasons why what's typical is a thicker neck profile. The low neck projection and small overstand is also no friend to thumb position.

Given $1500-$2000 to spend on one's first double-bass, I sure wouldn't recommend that it be plunked down on a Kay/Engel.

Now, before others here get out the flame-throwers, I'll say that we have many fine members here on TB who love their Kays. Hey, I had one from 1967-2002! They are experienced players, they know what they want, and their Kays usually are quite appropriate for the particular style of music they play. That's their decision and they should enjoy every moment! I wouldn't dream of trying to persuade them that their basses are not appropriate for them-- because they are!

It's another matter to suggest that a newbie start with a Kay. In my opinion, it's a bad move.

[StyleOverShow]

Originally Posted by wineaux

If you can, take an experienced player or a teacher with you...

Originally Posted by shadygrove

Every bass is different even when they are mass produced. Since you've done your homework, I'm sure you've seen this over and over, but it bears repeating... you need to play the actual bass you are considering buying to know what you will get.

I am in the process of moving to the DB. Hopefully the economy will hold together long enough because I need to change cars and buy a DB which makes it doubly expensive.

Taking a player/teacher with you seems like a very good idea. I don't have the strength/technique yet to make a DB sing but know quite a few cats that can.

Thanks for the info-

-richard

[tomshepp]

But if you consider resale...... then moving on to a better bass... a vintage Kay will hold it's value.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by shadygrove

Every bass is different even when they are mass produced. Since you've done your homework, I'm sure you've seen this over and over, but it bears repeating... you need to play the actual bass you are considering buying to know what you will get.

I think it is good advice to play the actual bass you will buy. I'd like to add, however, that given good quality control in the manufacturing process and uniformity of materials, I have found that ply basses vary much less from example to example than do carved basses of the same brand and model. This makes a great deal of sense given the large variations in the characteristics of individual pieces of spruce that form the tops of carved basses.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by tomshepp

But if you consider resale...... then moving on to a better bass... a vintage Kay will hold it's value.

Yes, but in my opinion, what you give up in terms of playability and sound is far too great. I understand the realities of resale but if you start with a better bass to begin with (which certainly can be had), then you might just wait a good while longer before the need to move up is felt. In addition, many bass shops offer very generous trade-up values on instruments purchased from them.

[tomshepp]

I'll say this, I never play my Kay since getting my LaScala. I keep thinking about how to make the Kay more desirable, like putting on gut strings or even a new fingerboard. Then I start considering wether that's a wise investment. Not to hijack the thread.... sorry.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by tomshepp

I'll say this, I never play my Kay since getting my LaScala. I keep thinking about how to make the Kay more desirable, like putting on gut strings or even a new fingerboard. Then I start considering wether that's a wise investment. Not to hijack the thread.... sorry.

It doesn't seem too much of a hijack at all. When I bought a hybrid several year ago, I kept my Kay. I went through just about the same thing. I ended up not playing it. Eventually, I used the Kay and the hybrid as trade-ins toward a carved bass.

[fdeck]

I love my Kay, but am under no illusions about how it compares to other basses. It got me to the point where I am at in my bass playing, but...

Left hand fatigue... check.

Thumb position difficulty... check.

Neck block failure... check.

Like DRUBB says, experienced players have worked around these problems to some extent, but it is widely accepted that the Kay is an oddity in terms of some important parameters such as neck profile and overstand, and neck joint design.

[drurb]

Once again, fdeck comes through with a straightforward, informative, dispassionate post. There you have it, straight from a Kay owner/player. I'm just a former one.

[brayjas]

I think something missed in previous posts is making some descision as to what type of music you are going to play, orchestral, jazz, bluegrass? The double bass has many applications and each one is set up quite differently. I began with an old Mexican bass which was set up to play easily and aimed at playing jazz. Then I got a beautiful Check flat-back that was set up like an elec-guitar and for jazz, although I had some cross-breed strings because I was working on orchestra technique at the same time i was working in a big-band, they kinda suck for both(the strings were Obligato's, sorry fellas) but it made me realize I needed two basses set-up individually. I went with one of Gollihur's Bulgarian's , because of the price, the good revue's, and if you read the classical repitoir then you know there is a large call for low Eb to low C on a regular bass and the Bulgarian five-string are priced right(as in the only thing below $7500). But it was set up crappy and I spent time and about $700 getting it right and finding a luthier who had it together.
My advice decide what your going to play, buy something set-up, stay away from Kay's, a four string is an ok place to start, and remember long tones are the key to good intot\nation and develoing the strength it takes to wrestle the gorilla.
good-luck I'm gonna go practice my three octive Cmajor scale for an hour before I start really practicing

[Tim Skaggs]

I own a 1952 Kay M-1 upright & I love it for what I do, but I'm under no illusion that it's the be-all, end-all of uprights. I've owned later model Englehardts and a Knilling Romainan carved flatback. The larger neck on the Knilling was SO much more comfortable than my Kay, but I couldn't get the Bluegrass bloom tone out of the Knilling. I noticed someone finally asked about the type of music you play. That info would go a long way in pointing you toward the right path. I've played so many nicer basses than my Kay, but for durability and the tone I'm after, I'll take my Kay. If I were playing more jazz, it wouldn't work for me at all. It all depends if you want big blooming boom or quick, responsive growl. Good luck.

[tomshepp]

Yet, when a player like Edgar Meyer plays bluegrass, he doesn't play on a Kay. I love/loved my kay, until I found the carved LaScala. Now I think about how to get a ply to the gig so I don't have to worry about the carved.