Kay Enthusiasts or Vintage Plywood for Jazz

[drew_bassmore]

Hello Fellow TB'ers,

I have a 1953 Kay C1 that I purchased a few years back when Kay's were fetching a premium in the SF Bay Area. I paid $2,100 for it, then got a new end-pin and adjustable bridge and case for it.

As you can see from the pictures, it was refinished (somewhat poorly), which, I presume makes it lose some of its "vintage" value.

With the economy what it is, I have been considering selling it to help raise some tuition money- but would definitely take a loss. At the same time, it seems that it would be nice to have a back up bass to my mid-grade carved Hungarian (worth about $5k). The Kay has volume, where my Hungarian sometimes doesn't. But with less nuance to the sound.

However, I find the Kay utterly unplayable, and the action way too high, with the adjusters almost all the way down. It seems to me, that I could potentially get a much more playable bass in the Kay if I were to replace the fingerboard to a nice ebony one, and have it set up for lower action. That, however, is another $800 investment.

It ultimately is my decision, and I am not going to make one quickly. I am just curious about others experiences with Kay basses specifically with Jazz.

[tomshepp]

I own a Kay. I practice on my other bass (carved LaScala) all the time and the Kay sits in the corner. I do use it in small bars and such where I wouldn't want to knock around my nice bass.

Kays are what they are. Comes down to the tough decision to either invest $$ to make it better, knowing you may not realize a return on that investment, or deal with it the way it is.

[MR PC]

You shouldn't need to replace the FB just to have the playing action lowered. You could ask your repairman to make the necessary adjustments to the bass as it is now. Is the original fingerboard to thin to work with?

And of course, it's good to have a spare bass around for all kinds of reasons

[drew_bassmore]

Originally Posted by drew_bassmore

seems to me, that I could potentially get a much more playable bass in the Kay if I were to replace the fingerboard to a nice ebony one, and have it set up for lower action.

To clarify, the present "ebonized" fingerboard has been planed too thin at this point to do it again. I figure an ebony finger board would give it a better sound and a longer life. In order to lower the action right now, I would need to have a bridge recut. I have a feeling that the height of a new fingerboard might extend the life of the current bridge too.

The bass was set up to its best state by Matt Bohn last winter. I played it for 2 months while the Hungarian was in the shop getting some TLC. Coming back to the Hungarian was extremely welcome (even though it is not an optimum instrument either).

I am mostly curious what people's experiences are with Kay's in a jazz setting. It may be part of the equation for me to consider investing more into the instrument, and keeping it as a backup.

Right now, it doesn't get played because of the aforementioned reasons.

Thanks for the response "tomshepp" and "MR PC".

[fdeck]

I got a Kay bass in ca. 1982, and it was my only bass until this summer. I used it for classical lessons, some legit playing, and quite a lot of jazz as a weekend warrior. Now I've got a carved Romanian bass that I'm just in love with.

Tone-wise it's a plywood bass. I've got it strung with Spiro Mitts. It doesn't seem to stand out as noticeably better or worse than the typical range of mainstream ply basses. It seems to amplify well. If it has any shortcomings under the bow, I could attribute them to the Spiro's, or to my technique.

Now there's playability. We know that the Kay design involves a skinny neck, low overstand, low and relatively flat bridge. My new bass has more of a mainstream setup by contemporary standards. As a result, the Kay now feels like I'm playing a Fender.

My plans for the Kay are uncertain. I'll either keep it as a backup, or I might loan it to a friend whose son is just at the point where he's outgrowing his 1/2 size. If somebody offered me a Shen SB80 or something like that in trade, I'd take it.

So, I may be in a similar situation as you, of having a Kay that's OK as a backup but not worth throwing a lot more money into.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by drew_bassmore

...At the same time, it seems that it would be nice to have a back up bass to my mid-grade carved Hungarian (worth about $5k). The Kay has volume, where my Hungarian sometimes doesn't. But with less nuance to the sound.

However, I find the Kay utterly unplayable, and the action way too high, with the adjusters almost all the way down. It seems to me, that I could potentially get a much more playable bass in the Kay if I were to replace the fingerboard to a nice ebony one, and have it set up for lower action. That, however, is another $800 investment.

If I have this right, you're generally OK with the Kay sound, but it's difficult to play. Maybe you could just get a new bridge or even modify the one you have. Of course I don't know how your Kay sounds, but in your situation, I'd want to keep it.

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Having your bridge shaped should be 1/10 the cost of a new fingerboard. When you do have to eat the cost of a new board and nut you probably won't feel another few hundred for a new bridge with adjusters or a Benjamin to add adjusters to a solid bridge (if that is what you have now) to compensate for the added height of a new board.

[arnoldschnitzer]

The OP stated above that his bass' fingerboard was too thin for another dressing, and that the bass is difficult to play. Considering that Kays were built with thin necks (and non-ebony fingerboards) it is probable that his neck is bending from the torque of the strings. Many repair persons make the mistake of trying to plane out the inevitable bend that occurs in these basses over time. This just exacerbates the problem, as the even thinner neck bends even more. Also contributing to the problem is the fact that Rosewood it not nearly as stiff as ebony, and will not resist bending nearly as well. The OP is correct in stating that his bass probably needs a new ebony fingerboard to play well. Installing a carbon fiber stiffening rod under the fingerboard can also be helpful. Working on the bridge will do nothing to improve the playability if the problem is excessive camber in the neck/fingerboard.

[ethnotime]

I just got a 1952 M1 Kay and it's awesome: nice sound, loud and easy to play. In NYC it's really nice to have this kind of bass around for gigs, especially when I don't want to haul an amp around. It's definitely not as sophisticated sounding as my carved bass, but, practically speaking, I couldn't do better. The plywood sound suits my playing so I'm willing to put up with that fact.

Hope that helps. Tough decision there, but I'd hang on to the Kay because in the long run it's also nice to have a back-up, particularly if you're thinking of going pro.

Good luck

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

The OP stated above that his bass' fingerboard was too thin for another dressing, and that the bass is difficult to play. Considering that Kays were built with thin necks (and non-ebony fingerboards) it is probable that his neck is bending from the torque of the strings. Many repair persons make the mistake of trying to plane out the inevitable bend that occurs in these basses over time. This just exacerbates the problem, as the even thinner neck bends even more. Also contributing to the problem is the fact that Rosewood it not nearly as stiff as ebony, and will not resist bending nearly as well. The OP is correct in stating that his bass probably needs a new ebony fingerboard to play well. Installing a carbon fiber stiffening rod under the fingerboard can also be helpful. Working on the bridge will do nothing to improve the playability if the problem is excessive camber in the neck/fingerboard.

I knew that.

[drew_bassmore]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

The OP is correct in stating that his bass probably needs a new ebony fingerboard to play well.

I could've been completely ignorant of precisely what is needed, but I came to this conclusion based on advice from both my teacher (Glenn Richman) and Matt Bohn.

The bass isn't going to fly out of my possession anytime too soon, but I am considering my options. Thank you for everybody's feedback.

As a side note, I hope to one day check out a Carved La Scala.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by drew_bassmore

As a side note, I hope to one day check out a Carved La Scala.

Pay my air fare and I'll bring you mine. Just sayin'.

[drew_bassmore]

Originally Posted by ethnotime

I just got a 1952 M1 Kay and it's awesome: nice sound, loud and easy to play. In NYC it's really nice to have this kind of bass around for gigs, especially when I don't want to haul an amp around. It's definitely not as sophisticated sounding as my carved bass, but, practically speaking, I couldn't do better. The plywood sound suits my playing so I'm willing to put up with that fact.

Thanks for your input. What is your set up on the bass (string height, string type, etc.)? When you play ampless, is it a purely acoustic ensemble? Also, are you speaking of jazz or other genres?

[drew_bassmore]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

Pay my air fare and I'll bring you mine. Just sayin'.

Tempting, but then I'd have to sell a Kay bass under market just to scrape together your ticket.

Thanks for the offer though.

[Phil Rowan]

+1 for what ethnotime said.. the Kay/ply sound is perfect in the right setting (which is a bit varied too, classical stuff being the exception). I have a '38 Kay (pics can be seen in the "bass eye candy" thread, or whatever it's called), which has an Engelhart neck installed way back when by the inimitable Arnold Schnitzer. More recently I had an ebony board installed (which I'd been seriously contemplating for some time.. the Engelhart neck was good in the beginning, but years later the thinness was really getting to me), and I love the bass even more now.. she plays like butter.

[bassbuddie]

I have a M1B Kay 1941, this was my 2nd bass, bought it in a pawn shop. The bass had ugly repair on the back side of the neck and on the top. But a luthier said to me that i was not nice but solid. I change the warped neck and the bridge. The bass sounded ok but just ok. I did not understand the buzz around the Kay. Recently, I bring the Kay to a young and talented luthier who realized that the Bass bar was unglued. He fixed it.

Now I understand the buzz around the Kay, the bass is very very nice sounding, I have Gamut strings on top. I prefer the complexity of my wood bass, but the Kay does the job often where I do not want to bring my carved bass. I have to admit that with all those changes, the bass cost me a lot. But it worth the price.

[bassist14]

i have a great 39 m1, had another 39er.
a good kay is a good bass - a not so good kay is a not so good kay

[ethnotime]

Originally Posted by drew_bassmore

Thanks for your input. What is your set up on the bass (string height, string type, etc.)? When you play ampless, is it a purely acoustic ensemble? Also, are you speaking of jazz or other genres?

Good questions, definitely affects tone and acoustic playability:

I prefer medium-high action with gut strings, so acoustically it's already quite loud and on my Kay it's even louder. For the most part when I play ampless, I often play jazz (all forms of it) in duos or trios with or without a drummer. Mind you, it also depends on the room and the musical situation so sometimes you just need the amp.