Kay M-1: To grovel or not to grovel?

[grampastumpy]

Fine gents of Talkbass, I am a 16-year old kid in high school. I've been playing music since I was 7 and have been playing DB seriously for a little over a year. Around then was when I picked one out of my school's bass storage room, more or less at random, not knowing what to look for, and I've been playing regularly and often since. I've lately started to get gigs playing DB, so I thought it best to get my own. Lately I've been doing my research and am a little less ignorant than I was a week ago. I've discovered that the bass I borrowed, as well as all the ones in the storage room, are CCBs. However, amidst a room of Palatinos and Cremonas, there was an old, beat-up Kay M-1. Here it is, followed by the reasons it's beat up.

Area around the bridge/between the f-holes is sunken into the body. This seemed like the best angle to demonstrate that from.
The top seems to be coming off on the left side.

The back is, in general, pretty beat up. Not sure how much that compromises the integrity or sound of the bass, but meh.

The bridge is crooked. Easy fix, but there are ALL sorts of scuff marks from it being moved before. Again, more of a cosmetic issue, but still.
Some exemplary artwork, including a fine pair of penises.

So my dilemma, TB, is whether or not to plead to my band directors to let me buy it for a cheap price. They do like me quite a bit, but I'm not sure what kind of red tape there is around selling school property, plus there's something of a shortage of basses during orchestra.
Anyway, the way I see it, a new Englehardt EM-1 would cost me about $1200 with shipping and at least another $100 for a half-decent setup. So, if I can get this Kay and repair it for under $1300, I've saved money. So how much do you think it would take to repair the things that REALLY need repairing?

[zeytoun]

The problem is that you're not going to be able to get an idea of how much work it needs just from looking at it. And you need to make your calculation based on more than just a calculation of immediate cost.

Suppose you could spend $500 on repairs now, but it would need another $1000 in repairs down the road. Well, you're likely not going to have the same issue with a $1500 quality bass from someone like Upton or Shen. So in the long term, in that scenario, the more expensive choice, would have saved you money.

You've been playing for a year, so you know that this is something that interests you, so you might as well start making your decisions with a little bit more long term view in mind.

At the very least, you need to find out the variables, before you commit. See about mooching it for a week, and get it to a luthier. See what he recommends, and divide it into "immediate" "soon" and "probably down the road" repairs. Get an estimate for each of them. Then make a calculation. Mine would be:

Immediate + Soon + (1/2*Probably) + Price = X
If X is significantly larger than $1500, I'd say "no"

But there are other factors. A Kay expert could better address the value of K M-1. (I'm guessing that without refinishing the "embellishment" this thing is not going to ever be worth more than $1500, but what do I know?)

Also, consider how the instrument plays, its tone, and if it fits the direction of what you hear yourself playing.

[grampastumpy]

You make a great point about long-term repairs. I'm just not used to instruments that need long-term repairs of that nature. My other main ones are piano, guitar, and electric bass, so I'm not used to thinking about BIG problems in the distant future.

This is something that much more than interests me. I plan on making a living through music.

Alright, I'll try to get it to a luthier, I was just hoping for some sort of ballpark estimate. If you guys start telling me straight up it'll cost me $2000 to repair the damn thing it's out of the question. I figured since it's old and beat up and since the band directors like me, I could get it for dirt cheap and it might be worth the repairs, especially since I won't need to spend the $1300 or $1500 all at once.

I played every bass in the room, and it played way better than the new Palatinos and Cremoras. I may not have stacked it up against the greatest basses ever, but it just felt so good. To be honest I was considering taking this particular one home a year ago and knew it sounded special, but I didn't expect to be so serious about it and took another one home for cosmetic purposes. I really do dig the tone, even though I might still not have the most discerning ear for DBs.

[Gearhead43]

I would love to have that bass.

[zeytoun]

The open seam is probably not expensive.
The sunken top is your main issue (that we know of ). If the bassbar and soundpost are present and fine, and the top is not sinking further, it might not be a huge issue. If the bassbar needs regluing, it'll cost a bit. If the bassbar is broken and needs replacing, you're probably getting above your price limit.

[kmanley_29649]

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

I would love to have that bass.

Penises and all, huh?

[grampastumpy]

LOL, right, I probably don't have the most discerning eyes either. May be some things I missed.

Now uh, "not expensive" meaning like, <$100? I'll check on the soundpost, and how would I get a look at the bassbar?

Originally Posted by kmanley_29649

Penises and all, huh?

The placement is the best part. It'd be my own private joke throughout the gig and people might just think I'm enjoying myself.

[tomshepp]

Is there a chance the school system will pick up the cost of repairs? I teach in a public school system, and in most cases, there is a budget for instrument repairs. Also, band/orchestra directors will often simply loan instruments out to students who will in return, play in the various ensembles at the school. I'd approach the band director and let him/her know that you like this bass and would make good use of it while you're at school. Then you will have time to find a bass you want to buy for yourself.... maybe even this one. MHO

[zeytoun]

Originally Posted by grampastumpy

Now uh, "not expensive" meaning like, <$100? I'll check on the soundpost, and how would I get a look at the bassbar?The placement is the best part. It'd be my own private joke throughout the gig and people might just think I'm enjoying myself.

Generally, for a straight forward seam reglue, I think about $50-100 (I could be wrong).

To look at the bassbar, get a small mirror. If you see that the bassbar is cracked/broken, a new one is really going to push your budget. And you'll save yourself a trip to the luthier. (If you can't find anything else wrong, you'll still want to take it to the luthier).

[longfinger]

Does that bass need to have the bridge fitted with adjusters or simply replaced to be playable? Now, it is WAY out of position. It should be centered around the inside notches of the ff holes. Was it put up so high near the top off the ff holes because the bridge is too short to give a playable string height in the proper spot?

A school should protect it's investment in gear, by having it maintained properly. This bass should be brought to the local luthier, either by you or by the school. Some things just need to be done.

Once at the luthier, you can get ideas of costs.

You may consider having the school fix it up and you just enjoy playing it for free until you graduate. Then you buy another bass, but by them you'll be a more discerning buyer.

[grampastumpy]

Originally Posted by longfinger

Does that bass need to have the bridge fitted with adjusters or simply replaced to be playable? Now, it is WAY out of position. It should be centered around the inside notches of the ff holes. Was it put up so high near the top off the ff holes because the bridge is too short to give a playable string height in the proper spot?

A school should protect it's investment in gear, by having it maintained properly. This bass should be brought to the local luthier, either by you or by the school. Some things just need to be done.

Once at the luthier, you can get ideas of costs.

You may consider having the school fix it up and you just enjoy playing it for free until you graduate. Then you buy another bass, but by them you'll be a more discerning buyer.

Do you mean there are some basses that can't be fixed by replacing the bridge? I'm pretty sure I'm gonna take it in to get a new one. You're pretty much right. The action is really low as it is on it, so the bridge is probably way too small. The school bought like 8 Palatinos lately and have largely ignored this thing. Getting them to repair sounds like an alright plan, but they manage to make repairs take FOREVER. I like tomshepp's idea about borrowing this bass and swapping it out for the one I've borrowed, repairing it myself, and seeing if I can arrange with them for that to eventually own it.

[fdeck]

I got a Kay from my high school. Actually it was on its way to the dumpster. It had the cracked bass bar, plus a loose neck, cracked neck block, and no sound post. The only way it was even a remotely viable proposition, was that I fixed it myself.

With that said, it's held up for more than 25 years. It had a sunken belly, but it hasn't sunk any further since then. The complete absence of a sound post suggests it might have been without one for some time.

[james condino]

'Stumpy:

'Great looking old Kay. Here in the land of crusty old bluegrass players, that beat up old finish alone would get you a lot of gigs. Fill out the rest of your profile so we can get an idea of your location. In some parts of the country these are worth next to nothing and others they get a pretty price, just depending on the local tastes. We'll also be able to reccommend some of our favorite luthiers.

My advice would be to try hard for the Kay and then get yourself a copy of Chuck Traeger's book "The Setup and repair of the Double bass".

I've said it a bunch before, but buying an old Kay is about like buying an old Volkswagon; you need to be a good mechanic, but it will also teach you a lot of life skills. I'd never send someone after their first VW without a copy of the classic John Muir illustrated VW repair book, the same goes for Chuck's book. It will arm you with enough information that you should be able to take care of almost any needed repairs and do a reasonable job on the setup.

I'm sure there will be a lot of naysayers here who will tell you that you are only 16 and can't do it yourself. I built my first guitar at age 12, sold it for $450 (a small fortune at that age in the late 1970s), by 16 was doing repair and setup work for the local music store and have been building every since. You can checkout the thread, "james' bass build" to see the latest that I've been working on. Good luck and let us know how it turns out- whatever you chose, stick with the double bass. It will change your life.

j.

[fdeck]

+1

It can also be a great project to work on with your folks if they are handy, or even if they are not. When I was a kid, we fixed pretty much anything that broke, and that included instruments. I started out "helping" and gradually got pretty handy myself.

My lifelong interest in electronics was sparked by playing electric bass, dealing with old amps that we cobbled together, etc. Electronics became a driving force in my "day job" career.

[Gearhead43]

+1 I have learned a TON about bass luthiery fixing up my old Engelhardt. I HAD to learn how to fix it out of sheer poverty, but it's a great bass now and I am proud to have done my own work. I studied and read all I could find about luthiery though (and still do) before I got my hands dirty.

[grampastumpy]

Originally Posted by james condino

'Stumpy:

'Great looking old Kay. Here in the land of crusty old bluegrass players, that beat up old finish alone would get you a lot of gigs. Fill out the rest of your profile so we can get an idea of your location. In some parts of the country these are worth next to nothing and others they get a pretty price, just depending on the local tastes. We'll also be able to reccommend some of our favorite luthiers.

My advice would be to try hard for the Kay and then get yourself a copy of Chuck Traeger's book "The Setup and repair of the Double bass".

I've said it a bunch before, but buying an old Kay is about like buying an old Volkswagon; you need to be a good mechanic, but it will also teach you a lot of life skills. I'd never send someone after their first VW without a copy of the classic John Muir illustrated VW repair book, the same goes for Chuck's book. It will arm you with enough information that you should be able to take care of almost any needed repairs and do a reasonable job on the setup.

I'm sure there will be a lot of naysayers here who will tell you that you are only 16 and can't do it yourself. I built my first guitar at age 12, sold it for $450 (a small fortune at that age in the late 1970s), by 16 was doing repair and setup work for the local music store and have been building every since. You can checkout the thread, "james' bass build" to see the latest that I've been working on. Good luck and let us know how it turns out- whatever you chose, stick with the double bass. It will change your life.

j.

Filled it out a bit. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say Southern California isn't one of those good areas? In any case, I personally love the character of a finish like that. I'm no bluegrass player though, I'm mostly a jazz guy. Hmm...I'll check that book out and see what I can get out of it. I'd love to be able to do that, but I'd definitely want to actually own it first. I'm not sure how well permanently screwing up a school bass will go over... -_-

It already has.

Thanks fdeck and gearhead too, I'm liking the idea of doing my own work more and more. I'd at the very very very least like to have a luthier look at it and tell me what's wrong with it that I missed though...

[chris dammann]

Originally Posted by grampastumpy

I'm liking the idea of doing my own work more and more. I'd at the very very very least like to have a luthier look at it and tell me what's wrong with it that I missed though...

A good bass specific luthier will be able to anwser all your questions in 30 minute session, I imagine. The dip in the top is the only thing that could cost you serious you money that I see from the pictures ( it also may not be a problem at all ) but there may be problems lurking beneath the surface. Plywoods are sturdy beasts.
Everytime I post I realize i am the worlds worst speller. Good luck to you on your bass journey.
chris

[eh_train]

Hey Grampastumpy,

I repaired an old Kay that had many of the problems you're dealing with, and it was a GREAT learning experience! If you can buy it for no more than a few hundred, and gradually work on fixing it, I don't see how you can go wrong.

The open seam, rather than a quick fix to be dealt with, could be considered a "window of opportunity". What I mean is, the top will have to come off to repair the sunken area. The open seam is a great start to getting the top off. Reshaping the top of a plywood bass has been discussed in other threads (I know I posted about how mine went), but the good news is that the top probably WANTS to go back to the original curvature. In my case the flattened top had loosened the bass bar, but that was easy to glue back in place once the top curvature was re-established.

As others have noted, Traeger's book is a great help. If you get the bass back to good working order, you will probably have a decent sounding instrument. And, if you ever decide to sell it, there is always a good potential for selling old Kay basses.

Good luck,

Paul (Eh_train)

[drurb]

The top doesn't look very sunken at all and is not uncommon for older plys and Kays. It might be fine left as is and may be wiser to leave it alone.

[Jesse Rosenburg]

Looks like my bass from high school, which I loved. I was jealous when I head someone a year younger than I bought her's. My parents and I never thought of making an offer.