To Kay or not to Kay . . .

[patton63]

I apologize in advance for the essential "newbee-ness" of this thread, but I could truly benefit from the collective wisdom of this group.

After decades of wanting to play bass and finding excuses why I was too busy to do so, I started playing electric bass about three years ago. I play mostly blues and classic rock. Flatwounds on a P bass are my go-to combination. The more I play, though, the more I am drawn to upright bass in those genres. I am also drawn to the type of music being played here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH_2W6M7NNo

The guys in the video are local to me, so I have seen them a number of times. The bassist plays a '40s Kay, which, to me, sounds great. I really like the short sustain/thump that comes from his bass. As a result, I've become fixed on picking up a vintage ('30s or '40s) Kay.

I have read the "how to buy" and "things to look for" threads on the site. I've also read the threads pro and con about Kays. All of this has left me rather confused. So, at the risk of asking the dreaded "which bass" question, I would greatly appreciate your thoughts/insights into the type of bass I should be looking for. As for budget, I would like to stay under $4k.

[Jsn]

Well, let's take stock here: You say that a.) "a 4os Kay...sounds great," b.) "I really like the short sustain/thump," and c.) "I've become fixed on picking up a vintage Kay."

So, in answer to the question: "the type of bass I should be looking for [?]:

Um, Palatino?

Just kidding. If you like the sound of a Kay, the next step is to play one. Or preferably several.

Since you've read over the Kay threads, you know the negatives: Thin neck. Commonplace neck repairs. Can be overpriced.

None of which is a showstopper. My only real advice, and it applies to all vintage plys: You want to want to get a luthier's
thumbs-up before finalizing the purchase, because you want to know that a.) any extant repairs aren't too funky, and b.) the interior plys are sound. (A bass delaminating from the inside can be pricey to fix).

Other than that: speaking as a Kay owner, you have my permission to fall in love.

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

One caveat -- do not pay $4k. I'll have to beat you.

[martinc]

patton63:

I have owned a couple of Kays.....a 1949 and a 1952. Both had pretty good thump when set up properly and the right strings. I did not like the thin neck but others do.
Kays were designed to be student basses and have lasted quite well. However a late 1940's Kay is now around 65 years old. Plywood sags or becomes delaminated over time so as Jsn noted, you could find yourself having a costly fix sometime.
Used Kays are very pricey these days...more because they reflect bygone days of Americana than anything else I think.
My suggestion, if you like what a Kay can sound like, is to look at a new Englehardt. They bought the body moulds from Kay and are making (in the US!) a pretty respectable plywood bass for well under 2 grand. Maybe 60 years from now they will increase their value as much as Kays. Upton also makes a similar instrument.
Play and listen to as many basses as you can before you decide.
But if you really have Kay fever.....go for it.

[Fattist]

I've got 2 Kays...a beat to hell 49 and a nice as hell 54 Blonde S9...they are great for lots of stuff and I've recorded Dozens of albums with the beat up one...you can absolutely find one for $1500 on Craigslist...
http://sarasota.craigslist.org/msg/3467623991.html
http://tricities.craigslist.org/msg/3468700061.html
I know those aren't in your hood...but they are out there!
Good Luck

[patton63]

I appreciate the advice and thoughts. My fear is becoming fixated on the Kay to the exclusion of a better option, or buying a real problem. I'll look into Englehardt. Fretwell Bass is a couple hours from my house and stocks a number of options (though most of the Kay's and other options are quite pricey in relation to the amounts mentioned).

Any and all suggestions welcome and greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[james condino]

Get ready for the Kaybashers.....

Fatty is a good friend and he has nice examples that have worked out well. His '49 Kay with ten year old Spirocores (!!!) sounds fantastic.... and he was being polite about the condition. He also has the skills to see exactly what he is buying and what he is getting into. I looked at an ancient old mid 1800s 5/8 bass two months ago that was on Craigslist advertised as an old Kay because it had a Kay tailpiece on it. After 2 hours driving backroads of North Carolina and then looking over the bass very well, I told the lady exactly what she had and what it was worth. She looked up at me, smiled, and said, "Yeah....some guy named Fatty came by a couple o' weeks ago and told me the same thing...."

Go to visit Jerry Fretwell. You'll be able to play 25 different vintage Kays in one day and you'l know if it is the right fit for you or not. Jerry is a nice guy and you'll learn a lot. You've read all of the other threads on the pros and cons; time to make a decision for yourself, not one based upon some internet dork's opinion...

Be patient and there is no reason you won't find exactly what you are looking for. If you make it down to Asheville, stop by for a visit. There are always lots of Kay-licious treats and more around here.

j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com

[calypsocoral302]

Originally Posted by Fattist

I've got 2 Kays...a beat to hell 49 and a nice as hell 54 Blonde S9...they are great for lots of stuff and I've recorded Dozens of albums with the beat up one...you can absolutely find one for $1500 on Craigslist...
http://sarasota.craigslist.org/msg/3467623991.html
http://tricities.craigslist.org/msg/3468700061.html
I know those aren't in your hood...but they are out there!
Good Luck

Hey! I also have a "beat to hell" 49! She's amber-colored, with the original black-painted hardwood fingerboard.

Regarding the pro's and con's-- there are a ton of threads that go over this in great detail, so I'll just sum up *my* experiences.

Pro's:
* Excellent tone and response, for a plywood instrument. My section's principal chair continually compliments the tone of my Kay in our orchestra
* Thin neck makes walking jazz and blues lines a breeze
* Not particularly picky about strings-- I'm using low-tension Spirocores (set-up by Mike Shank at Shank's Strings in Elizabethtown, PA) with surprisingly-versatile results.
* Pretty low-maintenance. I've never had to use a humidifier in my apartment, and my bass went nearly 20 years without any major maintenance. Only last year did I have Mike re-glue my fingerboard and the laminates.

Con's:
* The thin neck that makes great jazz and blues walks also has a tendency to make classical playing downright agonizing-- my hand fatigues quickly during orchestra rehearsal.
* Even though maintenance is a pretty rare occurrence, when it needs to be done, it HAS to get done ASAP-- if I had let my neck go any longer, the fingerboard would have separated, which would have caused the neck to break.
* Because they are laminated basses, the laminations tend to come apart after some years, which can really hurt your instrument's tone and responsiveness. Again, I owned my bass nearly 20 years before I had to get mine done, but it's worth mentioning that is not a problem that solid, carved instruments experience (that I've ever heard of).

Again, those are MY experiences with MY 1949 Kay, and you'll see that I listed more Pro's than Con's. I hope my experiences can help point you in the right direction for your musical development, whichever direction that may be.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by martinc

Used Kays are very pricey these days...more because they reflect bygone days of Americana than anything else I think.

You are spot on!

Originally Posted by martinc

My suggestion, if you like what a Kay can sound like, is to look at a new Englehardt. They bought the body moulds from Kay and are making (in the US!) a pretty respectable plywood bass for well under 2 grand.

I disagree. While I have no particular love for Kays as double basses, the Engels are, in my opinion, not even up to the level of Kays.

Originally Posted by martinc

Upton also makes a similar instrument.

I'll take issue with this as well. Upton is not really making ply basses much anymore. When they did and when they do, the product is not "similar" at all to a Kay. Their product, in terms of neck profile, overstand, fingerboard projection, body-shape, build techniques, build-quality, and materials were/are, IMO, head and shoulders above any Kay. They were/are "pro-level" plys and their prices reflect that quality.

Originally Posted by martinc

Play and listen to as many basses as you can before you decide. But if you really have Kay fever.....go for it.

I agree here as well. To the OP--As a newbie, I suggest that you make a truly informed decision. Being enamored of the sound of recordings of vintage Kays does not constitute, IME, an informed opinion. Listen to other basses on recordings and in person. Play as many as you can. If, after all of that, it is the Kays that speak to you, then, yes, go for it. No one can or should argue with your preference.

[patton63]

Great advice all around. My fear is being enamored with Kay because of hearing (both live and on recordings) a vintage Kay played a lot and, as a result, missing out on other good choices (new or used). I have no orchestral aspirations and know the limits of my playing. This is leading me more towards a ply or hybrid bass rather than a fully carved one. While I am an adherant of the "buy once, cry once" philosophy, I don't want to buy significantly more bass than I need. At the same time, I don't want to buy less than I need and find myself regretting the decision (and spending more to correct my mistake).

I am listening to as many recordings and doing as much reading as I can. Hopefully soon, I will find time to make a trip to Fretwell and some other shops I have heard good things about.

[statsc]

To my ears, the bass in the example you posted does not sound particularly "acoustic." If you are in love with THAT sound, you might want to consider something like an Eminence, which can be had used for quite a bit less than a vintage Kay. Of course, you would be missing the ability to perform with it unamplified, as well as the "coolness" factor of a vintage upright, however, you'd gain the coolness factor of an Eminence as well as a more "eminently' portable instrument that's probably more durable. Actually, for the type of music you play (blues and classic rock) as well as what was on the video, an Eminence would be great, and wouldn't be subject to feedback at higher volumes. If you wanted to be able to perform/rehearse with it unamplified, you could check out a Czech Ease (there's a definite coolness factor there!). If you're sold on the vintage factor (who DOESN'T love vintage instruments?), then go for it, as long as you're OK with paying as much for the non-musical aspects (i.e., pedigree) as you are for musical ones.

[martinc]

drurb:

I was thinking more of the price of the Upton blonde ply than anything else. I have only heard and played one of them though.
I have heard several Engelhardts and in most cases they sounded as good (or as bad) as many Kays. There is a caveat though....I ranted on this forum several years ago about how bad many Kays sound because they are not set up properly or have the wrong strings. When I bought my 1949 Kay, it had a piece of a broom handle for a sound post, wedged in with cardboard! Still sounded OK but of course with the spruce soundpost fitted properly it had way better volume and thump.

[bassplar]

I have a Kay that I bought in high school instead of buying myself a car. That was 15 years ago. I have never ever regretted it. Thought about selling it a few times but as soon as I pulled it out of the gig bag and hit a note I changed my mind everytime. I don't play as much as I would like anymore, but that is besides the point. I love the sound of it, and the price was right. I did have to put some money into it to have my luthier remove the neck and repair it, an old repair had given way. But never had a problem with it since.

100% agree with martinc. An expert setup can and will make a huge difference.

[coldtrain]

I had a 1945 S-51 similar to what's in the video. I had it strung with plain guts, A to high-C, and a wrapped gut on the E, all Lenzners. I could probably get you a test drive if you're really interested in comparing it. I don't believe it's currently for sale.

Pros:
Tone was great for a ply with guts.
Was still in good condition.

Cons:
Quiet, low neck angle.
Thin neck (heavier gauge stings would cause it to bend)
Thin fingerboard
Was delaminating
Kluson tuners...bleh
Relation of the neck heel to 3rd position, or the D/Eb was non-standard.

I ended up selling it to a friend for $3K to finance the purchase of a carved bass and every single con listed above was absent on the new bass. I could probably arrange for a test drive for you on the Kay if you're really interested though I don't think it's for sale right now.

As far as recommendations, I would say buy new unless you find that used one that speaks to you. For around $2K you can get an excellent plywood instrument that sounds great (and you'll have $2K left over to obsess about strings!)

Check out Tom Wolf's shop in The Plains -- he's a dealer for Shen, Sun, and Christopher, and probably some others, and he'll do a great set-up. He usually has some other carved instruments on hand as well, so check those out and compare. A while ago Brobst Violin had a used Kay (forget the year) that was beat to hell. Sounded good though it had all of those Kay quirks.

I've no experience with Englehardt, but the Sun and Christopher basses that I've played have been super.

Don't get *too* hung up on the Kay thing if you only want a good bass for playing. Collecting is another story...

[Fattist]

I like ALL the basses I've met! The one thing a good Kay has is sound quality...I've side by side sound tested my 49 Kay against several Upton plys and it wasn't even close...the Uptons sound "new" and all any of us can figure is that it's simply the age and type of plys used...I love Uptons! Drub is on point with all he said but there's an aged element to the sound that only time can provide...

[drurb]

Originally Posted by calypsocoral302

Hey! I also have a "beat to hell" 49! She's amber-colored, with the original black-painted hardwood fingerboard.

Regarding the pro's and con's-- there are a ton of threads that go over this in great detail, so I'll just sum up *my* experiences.

Pro's:
* Excellent tone and response, for a plywood instrument. My section's principal chair continually compliments the tone of my Kay in our orchestra
* Thin neck makes walking jazz and blues lines a breeze
* Not particularly picky about strings-- I'm using low-tension Spirocores (set-up by Mike Shank at Shank's Strings in Elizabethtown, PA) with surprisingly-versatile results.
* Pretty low-maintenance. I've never had to use a humidifier in my apartment, and my bass went nearly 20 years without any major maintenance. Only last year did I have Mike re-glue my fingerboard and the laminates.

Having owned a Kay for decades, this was sure not my experience. Assuming one is using "proper" left-hand technique, which I would argue is what really makes playing in any genre most efficient, the thin neck profile generally leads to left-hand fatigue. That's true whether you play classical or jazz. That is, unless you let your left hand collapse into the baseball-bat hold. As for being picky about strings, I always found my Kay to have a pretty narrow "acceptance range." As for the sound, well, yes, it's purely a matter of opinion but compared to ply instruments that I consider to be of a higher level, I wouldn't characterize Kays as having "excellent tone." Sure, some are better than others. In terms of "higher level," I'm thinking about New Standards, Uptons, and some Shens.

Originally Posted by Fattist

I like ALL the basses I've met! The one thing a good Kay has is sound quality...I've side by side sound tested my 49 Kay against several Upton plys and it wasn't even close...the Uptons sound "new" and all any of us can figure is that it's simply the age and type of plys used...I love Uptons! Drub is on point with all he said but there's an aged element to the sound that only time can provide...

As I've posted here many times, I believe the "age effect" is largely a matter of bias and myth, even among carved basses. A brand new carved bass does seem to undergo a substantial period of change from birth to a matter of months and, perhaps, over the first year or two. After that, meaningful changes might occur across decades. With a carved bass, the character and voice that are present at the beginning are essentially what one will have for its lifetime. Time does not transform a mediocre instrument into a fine one. This is why buyers are advised not to buy a new bass, the sound of which they are not particularly satisfied, while hoping that it will improve with time. Skilled builders can create brand new double basses that have a sound characteristic of what we typically associate with older instruments. That certainly applies to Upton's carved offerings. My own bass at one week old sounded "older" than many basses that were actually decades old. If you want a great first-hand example of this, go and play their Brescian. I'm not dismissing age as a factor. Rather, I'm suggesting that its effects are often overblown.

So much for carved basses. There has been considerable debate as to whether age is a substantial factor in the sound of ply basses. This is difficult to evaluate. Sure, vintage Kays do sound different than their younger counterparts and different than their Engelhardt facsimiles. The question is whether those vintage Kays sounded essentially the same when they were new.

Even conceding that time is a meaningful variable in the sound of old Kays, I've played more Upton, Shen, and other plys than I can count in the very same space as vintage and new Kays and Engels. Not once did I prefer the sound of a Kay. Not once. Okay, it's just a matter of opinion. If you especially like the thump and short sustain of a Kay, then I can understand why you'd prefer it to, for example, one of the pricier Upton plys. To my ears and hands, the Uptons played more like a carved bass than did the Kays. That, right there, explains why I preferred them. I suspect that the ply basses I preferred could be tweaked to sound like a Kay more successfully than the other way around.

There is certainly no right and wrong here. These are matters of preference. There are, however, certain shared and general "standards." That's demonstrated by the fact that experienced players will often broadly agree on what is a good DB sound. Among basses judges as such, there are certainly nuanced preferences but, overall, I think there is fair agreement such that it's not arbitrary.

[MollyKay]

Its worth pointing out that we have a fine example of this discussion in the TB classified right now. It hits nearly every hot button mentioned.

1938 kay m2

A vintage Kay, for sale at $4000, originally sold by Upton bass and claims to have a killer sound.

For every chair there is an a$$, and for every a$$ there is a chair.

When you fine the right musical partner in a bass that makes you want to play it and never stop…that is your new bass regardless of pedigree or what others say.


Enjoy the journey.

[neddyrow]

i agree with these guys (and girl)....play a few. i had kay fever a while back and almost bought a couple over the past year but after playing a them, i didn't really like them. the neck is skinnier and maybe for a person coming from the slab world might not mind it, but i did. i play bluegrass and americana-type music and thought the kay was the proper fit. i would much prefer a solid, reliable, newer than 60 years bass than get a kay. i agree that its a specific sound that guides choice and old instruments give you that. and, if they've lasted this long, they are tough and can keep going. but i agree that these plywoods might be coming to their age limit. so, do whqt everyone else said, and try them out. and before you buy, see what else you can get for the same price. you'll be surprised.

[martinc]

[quote=james condino;13761874]Get ready for the Kaybashers.....

Fatty is a good friend and he has nice examples that have worked out well. His '49 Kay with ten year old Spirocores (!!!) sounds fantastic.... and he was being polite about the condition. He also has the skills to see exactly what he is buying and what he is getting into. I looked at an ancient old mid 1800s 5/8 bass two months ago that was on Craigslist advertised as an old Kay because it had a Kay tailpiece on it. After 2 hours driving backroads of North Carolina and then looking over the bass very well, I told the lady exactly what she had and what it was worth. She looked up at me, smiled, and said, "Yeah....some guy named Fatty came by a couple o' weeks ago and told me the same thing...."

Go to visit Jerry Fretwell. You'll be able to play 25 different vintage Kays in one day and you'l know if it is the right fit for you or not. Jerry is a nice guy and you'll learn a lot. You've read all of the other threads on the pros and cons; time to make a decision for yourself, not one based upon some internet dork's opinion...

Be patient and there is no reason you won't find exactly what you are looking for. If you make it down to Asheville, stop by for a visit. There are always lots of Kay-licious treats and more around here.

James:

I'm curious:
- are Englehardts built the same inside as the old Kays?
- do Englehardts use the thicker ply tops that Kay introduced in the 50's because of the change to steel strings?

If not..what are the differences?

I chatted on the phone with Al Link, owner of Englehardt-Link, many years ago. What a character and a great guy! I wanted a set of the glue-on volutes for my 1949 Kay C-1.
He said he would send them to me right away. When I asked him if I should mail the money before he shipped them he said something like "don't worry about it. Send me the money sometime. But don't wait too long." .

[martinc]

I should have looked harder....the information I was looking for is here:

http://www.kaybass.com/history.htm

Just scroll down to the Engelhardt section.
Is there anything you can add James?
Also I should correct my spelling...it's Engelhardt...not Englehardt.