laminated or cheap carved??

[Macher]

Hello,

i have been playing electric for quite a while now. I also had a few upright lessons before. Since i play jazz every week, i want to buy an upright. I could invest up to 5000$ but i don t kow if it is worth it.

I took a look around, i found a Suzuki in good condition, probably with a rosewood fingerboard and (bridge?), not sounding really good but that was not sounding very bad either for 2000 CAN$.

I am going to try a Polish laminated upright with Ebony fingerboard, supposed to be in mint condition (the best Luthier of Montreal took care of it) with a David Gage Realist Pickup for 2500 CAN$

I tried a beautiful carved wood 100yrs old German bass that was in good condition and sounded really good to me for 5000 CAN$. Looks to be a good deal value/price.

I also saw an ad for a Dvorak bass saying i paid it 6000 CAN$ 4 years ago, make me an offer.


I would like to know, since i will be playing amplified a lot of times, that i will be playing in bars, hotels and restaurants, is it worth it to buy a double bass in real wood?

Is it worth it to buy a cheap wooden bass or you better stick with a good laminated with a good setup and pickup and buy a 10 000$ one in a few years?

Does a cheap real wood bass (around 5000 CAN$) will gain price loose price or stay the same after a few years?? I know that if you buy a 10 000$ bass the price is more likely to go up...

Thank you

Jérôme

[drurb]

With a budget of $5000, I would opt for one of Arnolds New Standard offerings or one of several entry-level carved models that are available. For the latter, my choice would be one of the Shens or one of the models sold under the Calin Wultur moniker. Others here will likely chime in with other options. Not all entry-level carved basses are created equal. Some are less desirable instruments than are high-quality laminates.

[Eric Hochberg]

Ditto the above and add the Wan Bernadel. You can get a very nice bass for $5000.00 and, yes, it is worth it. You need to try these out yourself, so, if you have to travel to do it, that's also worth it. It's all about sound, playability and structural integrity. It's harder to find a nice older "played in" instrument that meets those criteria in that price range, but if you take your time you might get lucky. Good luck!

[standupright]

I just picked up a Wan Bernadel about 2 months ago and am extremely pleased with this instrument. Fully carved. Beautiful sound. you can preveiw them here -

http://www.stringemporium.com/bernadel.htm

Steve is really nice to work with.

I attached the only pic I have transferred from my camera.

[toman]

In my opinion, for under 5k you're better off to get the best plywood bass you can find, and have a slammin' setup put on it. A nice new fingerboard, good machines, good strings, bridge, endpin, and everything adjusted by a bass-specializing luthier. Other than that, If you can swing closer to 6 or 7k, I'd say go for an older (last century) German bass that's been well loved and cared for with a good setup; that'll be a pleasing instrument that's easy to own and will always keep it's value. Not to bash any particular new instruments, but I just am not a big fan of the lower end carved basses; I think you're better off going with a known quantity, even though it may not seem as "nice" or something.

[ZuluFunk]

My uneducated thoughts on this interesting problem.

Carved basses are generally more prone to the damages of weather and wear. A cheapo carved on would either be cheap because of crappier materials or shoddier workmanship (or a combination of the two).
You're expected to get a nicer warmer, better developed tone from a carved bass. However, you'll be potentially losing some of what you're expecting over a plywood bass in terms of tone, and also likely to have manufacturing flaws that come about.

That was part of my thought process when I went to buy a DB. So, I got a good quality plywood bass. I don't know that I would have spent more than I did, because I wouldn't have gotten much more for my money.

Turns out that what I have is fine for the type of playing I do. Probably more than fine for the types of playing most people who are just starting on DB...even jazz.

Now, I'm not saying to skimp. But I wouldn't be so stuck on getting a carved bass that I'd settle for a cheap carved bass. Spend what you'd spend on a cheap carved to get a rather high quality laminated bass or maybe a hybrid, and have more money left over for great strings, set up, transducer/mic and preamp, a case or bag, stand, bow, and...more lessons.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

For what it's worth, I just replaced my "office bass" - a lower end carved Czech bass that sounded great but was too different from my #1 bass for comfort - with an upper end lamintate, which actually cost me $1000 more than the carved bass did. In this case, and for my purposes, it was a great move. But either way, you can get a very playable bass for $5K.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by ZuluFunk

My uneducated thoughts on this interesting problem.

Carved basses are generally more prone to the damages of weather and wear. A cheapo carved on would either be cheap because of crappier materials or shoddier workmanship (or a combination of the two).
You're expected to get a nicer warmer, better developed tone from a carved bass. However, you'll be potentially losing some of what you're expecting over a plywood bass in terms of tone, and also likely to have manufacturing flaws that come about.

That was part of my thought process when I went to buy a DB. So, I got a good quality plywood bass. I don't know that I would have spent more than I did, because I wouldn't have gotten much more for my money.

Turns out that what I have is fine for the type of playing I do. Probably more than fine for the types of playing most people who are just starting on DB...even jazz.

Now, I'm not saying to skimp. But I wouldn't be so stuck on getting a carved bass that I'd settle for a cheap carved bass. Spend what you'd spend on a cheap carved to get a rather high quality laminated bass or maybe a hybrid, and have more money left over for great strings, set up, transducer/mic and preamp, a case or bag, stand, bow, and...more lessons.

I wholeheartedly agree with the principles stated. I alluded to them in my own post when I mentioned that not all entry-level carved basses are created equal. In my opinion, however, the price-point of $5k these days can fetch a new carved bass that:

1) is not a "cheapo" at all

2) suffers neither from poor materials and poor workmanship

In fact, considering the carved basses mentioned here (e.g., upper end Shens, Calin Wultur, Wan Bernadel), I believe that in the case of all three that the complexity of tone is vastly superior to most laminates and most hybrids. Basses like the New Standards are exceptions and that's why I mentioned them. They also carry similar price tags.

Will the entry-level carved basses sound like ones costing $20,000? No way. Still, IMHO, they are well worth it. So what are entry-level carved basses missing compared to their more costly counterparts? Well, restricting the discussion to new basses (that is, excluding old basses), my understanding is that the entry-level carved basses often:

1) have wood that is often less "figured" in terms of cosmetics

2) have less ornate carving and purfling

3) are not individually shaped and graduated but are built to the same specs in a somewhat mass-produced fashion

4) carry less-expensive hardware (e.g., tuners) than their counterparts costing much more

They are not necessarily poorly constructed.

[mje]

What DRURB said. My Romanian bass is pretty plain looking, and those cheap tuners do look... cheap, but it has gotten a lot of compliments on its sound. I've replaced the endpin and the tailpiece, and one day I might replace the tuners, but it's still good enough for all the playing I'll ever do- at 52, I don't plan on studying at a conservatory with aims of getting into a major orchestra ;-)

[standupright]

DRURB -

What price range are considering to be an "entry level" carved base?

[drurb]

Originally Posted by standupright

DRURB -

What price range are considering to be an "entry level" carved base?

Well, for sure, I'd call the $5k mentioned an entry level. I've even seem some decent ones for around $4k but they usually need setup work. All in all, from what I've seen, if you want a fully carved that's worth buying AND you want it to come with a fine setup, you're looking at $5k minumum. No doubt, someone will find and exception.

[fingers]

I bought a Shen Willow for a less than $5K and I love it. I don't remeber the exact price but it sounds like it fits in your price range. It is awesome.

[Macher]

The more i think about it, i think i will buy a laminated. I have maximum 5000 CAN$. That means i can't afford to travel very far to find one and it has to be ready to play; setup, pickup, preamp...

It looks very smart to invest in a good set up but in what exactly? I have seen a lot of David Gage Realist pickups, they sound alright but are there any others? I have a MesaBoogie MPulse 360 amp that i use for my electric. It is a killer amp with both tubes and transistors do I need preamp?? I don't know anything about DB strings. I have seen two types around (suposed to be for classical or jazz) the red ones, and the red/striped black ones. Spirocore and Corelli?? I kind of like the classical ones! They were more flexible and easier to play. Soundwise i don t know what is the difference. What kind of set up would you recommend?

I tried three laminated basses.
A used Strunal worth 2700$ coming with a bow and a cheap fishman pickup. It is in good condition, is 2 years old but I was not impressed with the sound and thought it was kind of expensive for what it was.

A used Suzuki worth 2000$ in a luthier's shop. It is 30 years old, in good condition, rosewood fingerboarg and tailpiece, good endpin, comes with a setup and could probably get the strings i want. Soundwise, it was not sounding great but everything was there pretty balanced. I thought it is the king of soud you can changed through an amp.

An unknown bass in a luthier's shop for 3500$. Looked pretty old and the fingerbord looked worn out. Sounded alright but was hard to play and needed a set up.

Thank you guys!

[damonsmith]

You can get a decent carved bass for that price. A laminated is a waste of time. A student of mine just got a nice, old carved German Flatback with a great sound for $3k US.
Tone production and resonance are two different things on ply vs. carved.
Buy a carved Chinese bass, shop around, buy an EUB even but don't waste time and money on plywood. At least the EUB will come in handy later.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Macher

The more i think about it, i think i will buy a laminated. I have maximum 5000 CAN$. That means i can't afford to travel very far to find one and it has to be ready to play; setup, pickup, preamp...

It looks very smart to invest in a good set up but in what exactly? I have seen a lot of David Gage Realist pickups, they sound alright but are there any others? I have a MesaBoogie MPulse 360 amp that i use for my electric. It is a killer amp with both tubes and transistors do I need preamp?? I don't know anything about DB strings. I have seen two types around (suposed to be for classical or jazz) the red ones, and the red/striped black ones. Spirocore and Corelli?? I kind of like the classical ones! They were more flexible and easier to play. Soundwise i don t know what is the difference. What kind of set up would you recommend?

I tried three laminated basses.
A used Strunal worth 2700$ coming with a bow and a cheap fishman pickup. It is in good condition, is 2 years old but I was not impressed with the sound and thought it was kind of expensive for what it was.

A used Suzuki worth 2000$ in a luthier's shop. It is 30 years old, in good condition, rosewood fingerboarg and tailpiece, good endpin, comes with a setup and could probably get the strings i want. Soundwise, it was not sounding great but everything was there pretty balanced. I thought it is the king of soud you can changed through an amp.

An unknown bass in a luthier's shop for 3500$. Looked pretty old and the fingerbord looked worn out. Sounded alright but was hard to play and needed a set up.

Thank you guys!

Why did you skip over hybrids?

[drurb]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

You can get a decent carved bass for that price. A laminated is a waste of time. A student of mine just got a nice, old carved German Flatback with a great sound for $3k US.
Tone production and resonance are two different things on ply vs. carved.
Buy a carved Chinese bass, shop around, buy an EUB even but don't waste time and money on plywood. At least the EUB will come in handy later.

Why, necessarily, a Chinese carved bass? I know Ken Smith respects the commercial user's policy and won't push his own products but it's okay if I do. Take a look here . If you tweak the setup as Ken suggests you should still come in right around or under $5k. This is a great deal. I've played these.

[clink]

Check out the Hybrid Hawkes from Upton. I've got my eye on one.
$2600 shipped.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

A laminated is a waste of time.........Buy a carved Chinese bass, shop around, buy an EUB even but don't waste time and money on plywood. At least the EUB will come in handy later.

Now I don't that's right at all. I've got a cheap old German Ply that kicks the crap out of any EUB I've played for tone and playability especially plugged in.

In addition I've played many $5K to 10K carved basses that don't sound as good as my Laminated Cleveland. You have to spend some large dough on a Carved bass to sound better than that.

I would second the recommendation of Hybrid instruments as well. The Cleveland and Lascalla hybrids are 5600 and 5800 respectively and you'll need to spend 20K up to beat the sound of those basses. The Willow is the least expensive carved bass that I have played so far that can stand up to The Cleveland.

Yes carved basses have a complexity and responsiveness especially under the bow that a laminated bass cannot match EXCEPT when you cut enough corners in lumber to get a solid carved top in a low price range. I'd take a high end laminate over a cheap carved bass any day.

There is a great deal of overlap in the $2500 to $5000 range. There are great hybrids and laminates in that range. I think one must be choosy with a carved bass in that price range and be sure to get one that has exceptional wood. There are far more carved basses in that price range that are average or mediocre rather than great. In those cases the high end laminate will give more bang for the buck. This is especially true if you play more pitz than bow and are planning on amplifying regularly. IMO YMMV etc.

One additional caveat: overall I think that most (not all) of the Kay basses that land in that price range are overvalued for the quality of sound they produce. As such they should not be included in a grouping of "high end" laminates even though they are priced as such.

[robgrow]

FWIW these are basses I have been impressed with in the $2500 to $5000 range...

Upton Hawkes Hybrid -- $2600 and easily the overall best at this end of the price range IMO.

New Standard Cleveland or LaScala, ply or hybrid, all are outstanding.

Any of Calin Wultur basses such as the Corsini model Ken Smith is now selling.

[clink]

Originally Posted by robgrow

FWIW these are basses I have been impressed with in the $2500 to $5000 range...

Upton Hawkes Hybrid -- $2600 and easily the overall best at this end of the price range IMO.

New Standard Cleveland or LaScala, ply or hybrid, all are outstanding.

Any of Calin Wultur basses such as the Corsini model Ken Smith is now selling.

I hadn't seen the Calin Wultur basses before. For sure, Ken knows his basses. If I lived on the east coast, I'd check them out for sure.