laminated or cheap carved??

[damonsmith]

There is a place here in Oakland, Best instrument repair that brings in nice, responsive carved Chinese basses that really sing, some of them have even gone for under $2k due to simple repairs or cosmetic things.
I have just never played a plywood bass I liked, I am really into arco, so I am sure that is part of it.
I do not think EUBs sound better than plywood basses, I just think they are a better investment.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by DRURB

Why, necessarily, a Chinese carved bass? I know Ken Smith respects the commercial user's policy and won't push his own products but it's okay if I do. Take a look here . If you tweak the setup as Ken suggests you should still come in right around or under $5k. This is a great deal. I've played these.

-Those look like a great deal. by "Shop around" I meant see what you can find.

[Matthew Tucker]

FWIW I have a 30y/o german ply bass, a good set up with ebony FB; it's louder than a lot of carved basses, but the sound itself is not at all anything to get excited over. I play pizz exclusively :-(

But in a venue, amplified, next to the percussion in a salsa outfit, no-one can tell the difference. And I don't have to worry about cracks in the top or chips off the edges ... I can pretty much throw the thing in the car, over my shoulder, on the pavement, whatever, and extremes of weather (well we don't have that much extreme here I suppose) don't affect the bass other than dulling the tone a bit on wet days.

It was and is fine for my first upright bass, but yeah over time I have grown tired of the lack of richness in the tone, and soon I'm needing a better instrument. But you have to learn what you like, too, and that takes time.

I'd pay good money for a good setup on a strong bass and a decent pickup. IMO, don't get an EUB, its not the same thing.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I do not think EUBs sound better than plywood basses, I just think they are a better investment.

I think you'll find yourself in a small minority on that opinion.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

FWIW I have a 30y/o german ply bass, a good set up with ebony FB; it's louder than a lot of carved basses, but the sound itself is not at all anything to get excited over. I play pizz exclusively :-(

But in a venue, amplified, next to the percussion in a salsa outfit, no-one can tell the difference. And I don't have to worry about cracks in the top or chips off the edges ... I can pretty much throw the thing in the car, over my shoulder, on the pavement, whatever, and extremes of weather (well we don't have that much extreme here I suppose) don't affect the bass other than dulling the tone a bit on wet days.

It was and is fine for my first upright bass, but yeah over time I have grown tired of the lack of richness in the tone, and soon I'm needing a better instrument. But you have to learn what you like, too, and that takes time.

I'd pay good money for a good setup on a strong bass and a decent pickup. IMO, don't get an EUB, its not the same thing.

I agree and would like to add a bit. I sure can't say for sure that when playing with a group anyone could tell the difference between my bass and a typical ply. I do, however, believe that I can. The sustain and response in the mid and upper registers is just plain different to my ears even when amplified. There is a second, more important, issue for me. I practice pretty much every day at home and that is basically always unamplified. It's the pure acoustic sound I really love and that is really where the difference lies. It just makes ME happy.

[rdwhit]

I say go w/ a New Standard.I have played 4 of them-1 ply Cleveland, 1 ply LaScala, 2 hybrid La Scala including the 1 I own which replaced 2 older decent to nice german carved bases. The ply is less fragile & better suited for the locations of your gigs. They amplify extreemly well, are very light in weight & easy to haul around, & play like a dream.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I think you'll find yourself in a small minority on that opinion.

- Most bass players I have known start with a plywood bass, upgrade asap to a carved and get rid of the plywood bass.
Most end up with an EUB for travel or Loud gigs. I couldn't have gotten rid of my plywood bass fast enough.
As teacher, I find my students practice WAY more once they upgrade to a carved bass.
Even Pizzicato when you get a decent carved bass vibrating, you can just keep redirecting that intitial energy until you stop, similar to riding a bicycle.
I have a no-name but super responsive German (supossedly) flat back. Once I get that thing going it just does most of the work for me.

[larry]

If your budget is $5k, could you beg, borrow or steal another grand to get a hybrid New Standard? When I upgraded from my first ply 13 years ago, I had to get a bank loan for the $2k I needed for a hybrid. About a year ago, I picked up a hybrid LaScala (remember, the NS hybrids have carved ribs too, only the back is ply). I think you'd only find a better carved bass for that money if you happen to get really lucky. I can't imagine ever needing a better bass. If I buy another, it would be a luxury, not a necessity.

[Silversorcerer]

For the money you are talking about you can get a good carved bass made from plainer woods. I have never heard the flames in the maple, and from the 3rd row in a dark venue, I've rarely seen them either. Likewise it is difficult to establish that an expensive labor intensive oil finish sounds any better than nitrocellulose lacquer. Sooner or later you are going to want to play it with a bow, and most plywoods sound like diving bi-planes or chain saws under the bow. I can't verify it myself because we don't see many in Atlanta (I haven't seen even one) of the New Standards, but these seem to be exceptional by other's very frequent reports, perhaps because they are graduated, even though they have plywood tops.

The Laguna Sunrise from Lemur is one of the less expensive carved basses that has recently impressed me. Also I have never heard a bad sounding Christopher. I have one of the Kremona Bulgaria DB's from Gollihur. Many here will beg to differ, but these are a great value. Just because the price is low doesn't always mean the bass is poorly constructed, less durable than a plywood, or made of bad wood. It could just mean that labor is cheaper, good materials more readily available, and fewer middle men and shipping costs are involved. In the case of the Kremona-Bulgaria basses, which are not mass produced, but made one at a time per orders for them, this is most certainly the case. Keep in mind that shipping, inventory costs, etc. can add a great deal to an instrument's price.

Because of the factors I just mentioned, Romanian and Bulgarian instruments as well as those from other former Soviet countries offer higher value than the price seems to indicate. As far as durability there have been more reports on this forum of seams opening, cracks occurring, etc. on the new Chinese made basses than on new basses from Eastern Europe. As for my own bass, I have not babied the thing at all as regards weather. This weekend it will be subjected to a huge shock going from hot and balmy Atlanta to an outdoor music festival up in Tennessee's mountains. For 4 days it will live with me in a tent. I'm crossing my fingers, but I don't think it will break. If it does, I'll be posting the damage under Set-up and Repair next week.

With what you seem to be willing to spend, I would be checking out the carved Romanian Basses that Ken Smith is importing. He's going to have good stuff and it matches your price range fairly well. Other things that you have mentioned, for instance an older German factory made bass, are also well worth checking out. Make sure any repairs have been professionally carried out.

You did ask what holds it's value. Just about anything that is not a BSO will hold it's value or appreciate, carved or ply. Just look at what a vintage Kay goes for now.

[hdiddy]

If it were me, to spend $5K for the whole shebang, I'd run the numbers first of all the extraenous items. This is an example list I can come up with a list like this after all my experiences for a complete set up that I would no longer do anything else to the bass:

1) Strings: count on trying at least 3 sets @ $150 each = $450. 2 sets if you're being frugal.
2) Pickup: Anywhere from $100 for an Revolution solo to $200 (my conservative guess at an average pickup like an FC, Realist, etc).
3) MPM Tailpiece - a gotta have for me. $200 including install.
4) Tailgut if it doesn't already come with one. $45 including install.
5) A brand new and detailed setup $300, unless the luth includes it in the purchase price.
6) Preamp - $200+. A Fishman Pro Plat EQ is a minimum choice. Maybe buy one used for less.
7) A DB Bass Amp rig: Personally, I don't think one for an EB will cut it. Anywhere from $500 - $1300 for a new cab and head. I bought a used Focus SA for $800 and an Epi UL-110 for $450.
8) New End-pin. I'm a believer now after using Brent's Carbon Fiber pin. $120 including install.
9) New Bass Bag - $200.

Which means I'd look at spending $1400-2700 in these extras (they add up). I'm throwing out these numbers just as an example really and for discussion.

A Hybrid can be had usually for under $3000, and I do really like the sound of my chrissy now! Amplified or not.

Otherwise, if you plan on spending more on the bass later, then get the best you can afford now and spare like $1000-1300 for a setup and the extras. A New Standard lam bass would fit the bill nicely, or old workhorse bass in good condition can probably be had for that much as well (hoping that it doesn't need repairs).

Anyways, I like the advantages of a hybrid. The back is tougher (I beat up everything I own so I need it to be tough) and the bass is less prone to weather (not that weather is an issue in SF). You get some of the good carved sound at a lower price point. I chose a hybrid because of these points and ended up with a Christopher Busetto.

Personally, all the recommendations for a brand new bass are fine and all but I'm a little skeptical buying sight unseen. As much as an AES bass or an Upton looks appealing, I would def want to try it myself first.
Just my $.02.

PS: And I was thinking in terms of US dollars since I noticed you were mentioning the CAN $ earlier.

[Fat Tony XIII]

if it sounds good and plays nice who cares what it's made out of ?

[Macher]

Originally Posted by Fat Tony XIII

if it sounds good and plays nice who cares what it's made out of ?

I totally agree!

On paper though, my best choice would be a hybrid; it could stand the terrible weather conditions of Montreal, still have a bit of the wooden sound and be in my price range.

The problem i am facing now is that it is hard to find basses here! I would be interested in the Upton Hybrid Hawkes for US$2,600 (CAN$2900) but buying it online!!?? And i can't afford to travel very far

And i always thought i would get more sound for my $$ if i find a used one but at the same time i dont want to wait too long; it is now that i have the money!!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Macher

I totally agree!

On paper though, my best choice would be a hybrid; it could stand the terrible weather conditions of Montreal, still have a bit of the wooden sound and be in my price range.

The problem i am facing now is that it is hard to find basses here! I would be interested in the Upton Hybrid Hawkes for US$2,600 (CAN$2900) but buying it online!!?? And i can't afford to travel very far

And i always thought i would get more sound for my $$ if i find a used one but at the same time i dont want to wait too long; it is now that i have the money!!

True enough. If you, as the player, are happy that's all that counts BUT beware how the mind, ears, and hands get educated. A ply bass may feel and sound fine to a new player until the day he/she hears and plays a fine carved bass. Once that bug bites, look out! I'm definitely an advocate of getting the very best bass you can with your budget. The Upton Hawkes hybrid is a very good deal on a fine instrument. I wouldn't worry a bit about buying online from them. Not a bit. Just ask around.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Even Pizzicato when you get a decent carved bass vibrating, you can just keep redirecting that intitial energy until you stop, similar to riding a bicycle.

I was thinking about these comments tonight while playing. I agree with what you said in this post as a clarification of the earlier comments. In addition I wanted to underscore this particular comment as it was driven home to me today.

My Cleveland bass was down for the count as I stupidly dropped the soundpost putzing around with a pickup that had broken. I don't have a setter and had no time to deal before my gig this afternoon so I pressed my B bass into service. It's an old Joe German Laminate from the 40's.

Playing it was a ton of work. Notes just died off it and my hands were hurting from the extra work it took to get something musically useful out of it. Granted both basses are Laminates however the Cleveland is an exceptional creation for a laminate. I believe it has a similar energy development as a carved bass.

I started thinking about the difference between those two instruments then how the Cleveland is compared to the few 20K and up carved double basses I've played. There is no doubt that is where it's at. The energy developed on those boxes is gigantic in comparison. They create their own musical energy fields that make you play differently, more efficiently and more synergistically.

That energy difference is the best reason to buy a carved bass. Several months ago I played 20 basses at a local shop, all of them carved, but none of them had that special something that generates it's own gas. The only basses under 6K I've played so far that had it were the Shen Willow and the New Standards. Everything else I've played that had that certain something cost over 20K.

The next instrument I buy will have the same something that knocked me out when I played the Cleveland. I'll bet it will have a carved top and I'm guessing it will be stupid money.

[Silversorcerer]

Just wanted to let you all know, I'm back from the 4 day outdoor festival up in the Lookout Mountain area, and my fully carved Kremona-Bulgaria Ltd. from Gollihur music is no worse for the wear. I might add that it generated numerous compliments both on its sound and look and got passed around several festival campsites as well as played amplified on the main stage.

We had variable weather;- warm with a small rain shower the first afternoon, cool the first night, cool and dry the 2nd day, downright chilly the second night, warm again the 3rd day, cool and humid that night, warmer still the next day, followed by a cool thunderstorm that afternoon. The bass varied in tuning by a whole step, however the set-up and string height remained amazingly constant;- I use no bridge adjusters. The parking area was well away from campsites so the bass stayed with me either totally exposed or in the tent during the rain. After all of that, I think if one uses common sense and keeps a carved instrument out of the sun and doesn't leave it in an auto under the sun, they can be quite durable and tolerate changeable weather.

Also I might add, the Kremona-Bulgaria bass comes with Helicore Orchestra Strings, which are fine strings and need no replacement. While a Pecanic TP might be a nice addition, the stock hardwood tailpiece on this bass is very well made already. The tailgut is braided metal cable which is fine stuff also. No problems with the stock end-pin either. I'm sure whatever upgrades might be preferred could be added over time and are not necessary on this bass as immediate medicine. That said, you will need a pro sound-post fitting, nut, FB, and bridge tweaking to get the most out of a Kremona-Bulgaria DB. Altogether I am extremely happy with this bass. It's sound has gone from good but quite stiff to purring very easily in just a little over a year and continues to improve.

I really agree with Uncle Toad on the energy characteristics of carved tops and while I have no empirical evidence other than my own experience, the extra response and purer tone quality is well worth any of the small inconveniences that might accompany a carved instrument. You will learn to play the bass faster and more easily with a good responsive graduated top instrument. I don't think the back and sides are as critical so hybrids are not a bad choice. I'm going to have to get up with that fellow in Columbus, M. Childre (?), I think, who has a Cleveland and find out what those are about. If there is a plywood topped exception to the rule, that may be it.

[Paul Warburton]

I've had some great experiences with the Calin Wulter line.....especially the Carcassi pattern!!! 100% carved, choice of flat or carved back.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I was thinking about these comments tonight while playing. I agree with what you said in this post as a clarification of the earlier comments. In addition I wanted to underscore this particular comment as it was driven home to me today.


That energy difference is the best reason to buy a carved bass. Several months ago I played 20 basses at a local shop, all of them carved, but none of them had that special something that generates it's own gas. The only basses under 6K I've played so far that had it were the Shen Willow and the New Standards. Everything else I've played that had that certain something cost over 20K.

The next instrument I buy will have the same something that knocked me out when I played the Cleveland. I'll bet it will have a carved top and I'm guessing it will be stupid money.

- It does not always cost so much, the bass I mentioned my student got for 3K really moves. Ergo EUBs have the same principal going, Since it is just one carved block of mohgany. That and the $700 price tag makes me reccomend those as a first step into double bass over a ply.
You can hear my bass on the first video on my myspace page. It is unamplified, and bass is doing most of the work.