Lemur Jupiter Upright Bass vs. Cleveland New Standard

[drurb]

Originally Posted by LouisF

Clink:

To your earlier post about Mercedes and Chrysler - well they actually did that. The Chrysler Crossfire and Pacifica were built on Mercedes platforms (400's I think) when the two companies were joined for a while. Chrysler customers were told they were getting a budget Mercedes (sort of true). Mercedes customers felt they were buying over priced Chryslers.

I am making ABSOLUTELY no analogies to the Lemur/AES situation either way, other than giving a little "cartalk" info.

Louis

Remember when Ford had those ads suggesting that the Grenada looked so much like a Mercedes that folks were confused? Again, just more car info. Now, back to the regularly-scheduled programming...

[ctregan]

"Jupiter" sounds like a goofy name for a bass.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by ctregan

"Jupiter" sounds like a goofy name for a bass.

I've played some low end basses that sounded more like Uranus.

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

I've played some low end basses that sounded more like Uranus.

!!!
.. he's here all week folks. Please tip your waiter or waitress.

[MR PC]

Originally Posted by ctregan

"Jupiter" sounds like a goofy name for a bass.

Thank-you!

[Treyzer]

Aloha Everyone,

I've been reading this thread and have found it amusing!
Just a few points:

I've delt with Jerry at Lemur over the past few years and found him to be very friendly, professional, knowledable and truly interested in his customers. He is a bass player and he likes bass players. He also stands behind his products.

I've been to his shop and he has some very nice basses in there. It's like being in disneyland for UB!

I also teach economics.. I don't want to go into a long dissertation about the subject, nor do I want to condescend, but I will say that competition is one of the foundations of a free market society and ultimately, it is the consumer who benefits from the choices that are made available through
producers who compete for our dollars

Finally.... Guys...this is a Tempest in a Tea Cup! Don't we have much better things to do with our time.. like playing or shedding?

That's all I got

Aloha

Trey

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by clink

Big sound, fun to play and $1300? I know why those basses have been popular all these years. If I weren't broke I buy it myself. Somebody, go buy that bass.

$1300? Wow, I haven't seen a price that low on an American Standard in a long time. Might have to take a drive this weekend.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by clink

I recently played an American Standard over at KC Strings that knocked me out. The serial number was in the 500's but it looked like it had been drug behind a car down a dirt road and left out in the rain. It had been well used for sure.
Big sound, fun to play and $1300? I know why those basses have been popular all these years. If I weren't broke I buy it myself. Somebody, go buy that bass.

I played it's sister, #500 at Steve Swans. So much fun.... if I weren't looking for carved basses it would've been mine the first time I laid eyes on it. Someone go buy it already.

[Steve Killingsworth]

Okay, so the Jupiter is a knockoff of a Cleveland. Is that really such a big deal?

I didn't buy my Cleveland because it looked good. I didn't buy it because it was a design similar to an American Standard. I didn't buy it because had a nice overstand or gamba corners or leverage or string length or any of that other scientifical/acoustical gibberish.

I was fortunate in that I was able to give it an extensive test drive before deciding to buy it. I bought it because it had best tone of any ply bass I ever heard. I bought it because it was exceptionally well built. I bought it because it played like a dream.

I really don't see this as a big threat to Arnold and Wil. If someone really wants a New Standard bass, they will find a way to get one, and I doubt if they will settle for anything less. Someone who is looking for a cheap alternative like the Lemur product would probably never buy the real thing anyway. To go back to the earlier analogy, ain't nobody who is really looking for a Benz gonna settle for a Granada.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Allen

$1300? Wow, I haven't seen a price that low on an American Standard in a long time. Might have to take a drive this weekend.

Even in its battered state, it is a good buy. The ugliest part of it is the neck joint-broken back at the button and poorly patched. It looks to be solid though. The bass is a player for sure. Honestly, if I weren't broke from spending almost $10K there this year I would snap it up. It is a big bass that feels similar to mine. A perfect beater bass.

[Treyzer]

Mr. PC "I think some of us here want to get a clear picture of what this new instrument and it's arrival is ALL about. It's a quality of life issue IMHO. Hence discussion, some uncomfortable."

Although I have no knowledge about this particular bass, I did provide TB'rs with some information regarding the owner:Jerry ... This is better than slagging someone you don't know

Mr.PC "So, no. I don't think your suggestion that everyone do something else with their time is a good one. What's good for you might not be so good for me."

If you reread what I actually wrote you will see that I suggested nothing. I simply asked, (in a very good natured way), if we don't have other interests that are more importatnt!

I have no interest in telling or suggesting that anyone do anything. Don't have the time, energy or interest!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Steve Killingsworth

Okay, so the Jupiter is a knockoff of a Cleveland. Is that really such a big deal?

I didn't buy my Cleveland because it looked good. I didn't buy it because it was a design similar to an American Standard. I didn't buy it because had a nice overstand or gamba corners or leverage or string length or any of that other scientifical/acoustical gibberish.

I was fortunate in that I was able to give it an extensive test drive before deciding to buy it. I bought it because it had best tone of any ply bass I ever heard. I bought it because it was exceptionally well built. I bought it because it played like a dream.

I really don't see this as a big threat to Arnold and Wil. If someone really wants a New Standard bass, they will find a way to get one, and I doubt if they will settle for anything less. Someone who is looking for a cheap alternative like the Lemur product would probably never buy the real thing anyway. To go back to the earlier analogy, ain't nobody who is really looking for a Benz gonna settle for a Granada.

At least we all knew and know what a Benz and Grenada were. So far, we have virtually no information about how well the Lemur bass is built, how it plays, what it sounds like, and whether and to what degree it actually is less than a NS. That is, I'd really like to hear reactions after some trusted folks have had a chance to give the Lemur the same kind of "test drive" you were able to give your Cleveland.

This is quite apart from my view or anyone else's view as to whether the introduction of the Lemur product somehow represents a stepping on Arnold's toes. This is also quite apart from whether I or anyone else believe that it is very likely that the NS is of substantially higher quality. I know where I'd likely place my bets in the absence of any other information. That's just the point-- I'd like to have that information. I'm not willing to draw a firm conclusion based solely on the price differential. That, IMO, would be pure folly.

In short, I'd really like to see the data! Someone please go play the thing and tell us about it-- preferably someone who owns or is very familiar with the Cleveland.

[Paul Warburton]

Now, girls.........

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Just to clarify, the Cleveland is not a copy of the American Standard. It is "in the style of". There are modifications to the shoulders, neck joint, neck, string length, scroll, etc., etc. I have written to Jerry at Lemur expressing my displeasure at his obvious attempt to capitalize on the New Standard's success with a cheap imitation.

Please re-read this.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

the La Scala looks like a Moretone.

Simply untrue. The LaScala is a completely original design and has nothing to do with the King Moretone.

One other point: New Standard basses are not "AES" basses or "Arnold's" basses. The New Standard business is a partnership between myself and Wil deSola, without whom it would not exist. "My" basses are completely handmade by me and sell for about 5-6 times the price of a New Standard.

And another point: I never said it was immoral, unethical or illegal to copy another instrument. I said I was disappointed in Lemur's attempt to capitalize on the success of the New Standard Cleveland. Disappointed. No one is getting sued, no one is getting slapped-down. Just expressing a negative feeling. It is especially hurtful since Gerry has been a supplier of certain parts for us and has always been a "friendly" competitor. Argue as you wish that his Jupiter is or isn't a Cleveland facsimile. But the use of the term "new standard" in the copy makes things very clear to me.

[Gearhead43]

My mistake.

[arnoldschnitzer]

It is indeed. Those two basses have nothing in common other than violin corners and somewhat sloped shoulders. We looked at the King design and decided it was not something we cared for. The LaScala design copied absolutely nothing from the King.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

That's my bass! I've seen quite a few Moretones at the Aebersold camps, and in person, they look almost nothing like a LaScala. However, from those pics I could see how you could make that connection.

I'm not so interested in the look of a bass as compared to the sound, but I'm always amazed when people like Ken Smith can tell so much about a bass by looking at pictures (i.e. where it came from, when it was likely made, what it was patterned after, etc.). I'm sure that if pics of the Cleveland and the Jupiter were put up side by side, they'd look pretty similar as well, but that means little to the player. I still remember how - after owning an original American Standard for years and gigging on it - I played a NS Cleveland for the first time. I thought that the body shapes looked similar, but that the Cleveland felt *much* different (and honestly much better) to play than the original Standard. The biggest two differences were the neck thickness and the overstand, which made the NS bass feel much more responsive and facile. Add to that the fact that the sound was completely different.

The bottom line, as many have stated, is that there's just not enough info on the Jupiter to make any kind of comparison other than, "it looks kinda like a Cleveland in the pitchers".

[Treyzer]

Hey Mr. PC,

We're cool...I see where you're coming from. I should have started my original post with the word "Interesting" not "amusing"... This is a very thoughtful thread with lot's of great input!

Aloha

[Gearhead43]

I still think the La Scala looks like a Moretone. The shoulders, the angle of the violin corners, C-bout shape, and even the lower bout shape look similar. Although, the shape of the corners themselves are different, and the f-holes are also very different. If I were to see both basses side by side, I am sure the differences would be more apparent.

It was not a slam, and no disrespect was intended to you, Mr. Schnitzner. I think the La Scala is a beautifull design and my assumption that it was intended to look like a modern interpretation of the Moretone was not meant to have negative connotations.

I love both the HN White basses and hope to own one some day. I would also love to have either of the NS basses, but they are too far outside of my price range.

A friend of mine has a beautifull old Moretone and it is an absolute cannon, and the tone is awesome also.

Is there any existing info on WHY the HN White basses were such good-sounding instruments? Has anyone done an analysis of the laminates and/or construction used? There has to be something different about them that made them special.

It would be great to have Mr. Schnitzer's insight on what made the HN White basses special, if he would care to comment.