A little reminder to Try Before You Buy!

[tbassist4]

Hey guys,

I recently purchased a beautiful Shen Rogeri 3/4 hybrid from Robertson and Sons in Albuquerque and wanted to share my experience.

I used to cruise the forums here a year or two ago, and heard a lot then and now about purchasing basses online without playing them first. This didn't seem like a bad idea at the time, and I suppose it's really not a terrible idea as long as you order from somewhere reputable, but I will say that I'm sure you'll get a better bass if you go into your local shop, or the warehouse of the online shop, or have them ship you a bass, and try them first - here's why:

I had an interesting experience with two Rogeri Hybrids - exact same model and price. To my surprise, they sounded quite different from one another - surprisingly so. I see a lot of threads on these forums asking things like "how do you like your (this model)" or "what do you think of (that model)". I used to ask these type of questions. Asking online, you can only get someone else's opinion on one particular instrument that may sound quite different from the one you'd be getting. They're all made of wood and are hand carved - that can make for a lot of difference between instruments, as I discovered.

Back to the two Rogeris. The first one I tried was very dark and mellow sounding - a little quiet, but very easy to play, and the sound was quite beautiful. The second Rogeri was on the other side of the sound spectrum - it was louder, and had more focus in the sound. Of course, it was also very beautiful sounding.

Aaron Robertson, a bass player and salesmen there, helped me decide by play testing. After I had played through all of the basses in my price range in a standard sized room, I narrowed it down to these two Rogeris - it was a close call. He played both of theses basses for me in the current room. My preference from behind the bass was the mellow Rogeri, but after hearing him play both, I could hear that the focused Rogeri had a much better sound from the room, where it really counts.

We then went down to the recital hall that they have in the shop. This was the most important part. He left me alone for a while in the hall to try the two against each other. In the hall I preferred the focused Rogeri quite a bit over the mellow one. Aaron then came in and did an A/B of the two, playing the Beethoven Recit, the intro of the Koussevitsky, and some scales and arpeggios - a full range of playing styles.

I sat in the hall towards the back. The mellow Rogeri sounded great, but got lost a little bit in the hall. It wasn't terrible, but the dark nature of its sound didn't project well - making it sound a little muddy from the back of the hall.

The focused Rogeri cut straight to the back of the hall with a wonderful focused sound. It sounded very present, as opposed to "covered" or muddy. The focused Rogeri was much more balanced in terms of its tone - providing plenty of bass and the focus needed to get it to the end of the hall.

So, I learned something out of that - even two basses of the exact same model can sound very different, and only playing them and having someone play them for you can help you decide.


So, here's a little Try Before You Buy checklist from my limited experience:

1. Go to the place that's selling the bass you want.

2. Bring your gear (bow, stool - whatever you usually use).

3. Play all of the basses of the same model yourself.

4. Have another experienced player do the same (this is important).

5. Try competing basses in the same price range.


Consider this: Web Bass Company A has about 3 - 5 Bass Model X's that you want. All 3 - 5 will sound different from one another, and not just necessarily in a preferential sort of way, some will actually sound better than others. If you order online, its a bit like reaching into a grab bag - you don't know which one you'll get. None of them are terrible, but one or two are really exceptional. To ensure you get the exceptional instrument you have to play them all.

So, once again, I strongly recommend either going to the place that has the bass you want or having them ship it to you. Of course, try your local or regional luthier. The bass you want may be closer than you think!

Thanks for all of you who read this far . I hope my advice has been helpful and not too overbearing.

Tyler

[spaceboy]

Great post. Thanks!

[Eli_Upright12]

I'll add two points for the check list.

1. Do a trial and play it in many different rooms and settings(this is what you did that really showed the difference in the two basses).

2. Always take the bass to a luthier you trust for a second opinion. Both my friend and I had instances with a shop in michigan. We both had basses out on trials and were liking them. I found out from another luthier(my own, trusted luthier) that on the bass I was trying, the shop had skimped on the neck they put on. It was cheap and made of softwood. The bass tonally was great, but had some cracks(that they didn't tell me about)and the neck. So I passed on it. They were also asking a ridiculous price. My luthier really saved me some trouble on this one. My friend had another bass from the same shop and was really liking it as well. While we were having a rehearsal for our senior recital, the soundpost fell down. He took the bass to the same local luthier as I did. The luthier informed him that the bass was not in fact the 60 year old german bass that it was billed as, but a chinese facsimile. A second opinion can never hurt your cause.

[drurb]

Thanks for the posts tbass and Eli. Trying before you buy is always the best scenario. With regard to two of the same model bass sounding different, I wonder how much of that is the result of inherent differences in the instruments per se, differences in the setups, or both. As most of us know, even slight differences in setup (sound-post placement, etc.) can result in sonic differences. Of course, regardless of the underlying reason, "try before you buy" is still a good idea so that you get the individual instrument that, to you, sounds the best.

[Wilbyman]

Great post, very timely for me. Thank you.

W

[swingingoodtime]

Reminds me of the time I accompanied a friend to buy an acoustic guitar; he compared two Martin D-28 HB’s ($5K each!) side by side; they had consecutive serial numbers, so were presumably made using wood from the same or similar batches, and yet they sounded completely different. We’re not talking subtle differences either; one was quite mellow but ultimately muffled in tone, the other full & lively with great resonance. We were staggered; even the shop owner was floored about how much difference there was. No guesses about which one my mate ended up buying, but it too was a valuable lesson about the variability & uniqueness of handmade acoustic instruments… (particularly when spending that kind of $$; I could buy a seriously nice bass for what he spent on that guitar!!)

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

Reminds me of the time ..... two Martin D-28 HB’s side by side .... they had consecutive serial numbers, so were presumably made using wood from the same or similar batches, and yet they sounded completely different. We’re not talking subtle differences .... it too was a valuable lesson about the variability & uniqueness of handmade acoustic instruments …

Yes Indeed Good Time ... Good Post .... Martin Dees .... The best bluegrass guitars there are (IMO) even though I live in The Town where Gibson acoustics are made now. Just to keep our local economy going and my friends busy .... I have also heard some awesome Gibsons Jay-Models in bluegrass too .

The point you made is Right-On .... Martins, Gibsons, Webers, Any Fiddle, Kays, Epiphones, Shens, Christophers, Uptons, New Standards ... Yadda Yadda .... Whatever .... They do vary a lot and must be played and heard.

My close pal just bought a sweet pristine '67 Gibson B-25 "parlour" guitar for cheap that sounds great. I saw and heard a '44 Triple-Ott-Something-Or-Other Martin guitar at a jam last week-end that he got for $100 from a gal in Lost Wages Nevada around 1975 after her husband died. She wanted him to take it for free but he gave her $100 .... It sure sounds good and was appraised recently for insurance at $18 Grand .

Maybe 1 in 7 (??) acoustic instruments have The Right Stuff ... Don't buy on name alone. Of course as far as basses go ..... A choked-chicken bass can be way-better after it has been in the hands of a Good Luthier .

(P.S. O-Ridger-Poster .... T-Bassist from Boulder Colorado ) ... Once Again .... I lurk as a Rookie Basser and mostly-have nothing useful to add to Y'All Real Bass Players discussions .

But I have Fun anyhow and I will say that I went to CU / Boulder to complete my MS in Chemical Engineering in about 1978 ... Attended many Fine Concerts .... Not just Telluride Bluegrass Festivals, local Hot Rize, John Hartford, Newgrass Revival shows at the taverns ... But also some fine jazz and classical shows in Boulder... Maybe you played then ? WhatEver .... The best part of My Life started 3-years-ago when I got my first double-bass .

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by Bob Knebel

Yes Indeed Good Time ... Good Post .... Martin Dees .... The best bluegrass guitars there are (IMO) even though I live in The Town where Gibson acoustics are made now. Just to keep our local economy going and my friends busy .... I have also heard some awesome Gibsons Jay-Models in bluegrass too

OK, at risk of being told off for mentioning guitars a second time in the same post check out these guys:

http://www.myspace.com/theorphansau

Couple of friends of mine, bluegrassy-folk influenced; one plays said-Martin, the other a Gibson J45. Only three tracks on MySp now, but they've a killer album on the way, seriously good songs (and I'm not just spruiking for friends here, either!).

To bring back the DB content to the post, I hope to play for them one day in my 'spare' time (they currently lack a fulltime DB player, but Damn! do they have a great pedal-steel player!)

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

OK, at risk of being told off .... Damn! do they have a great pedal-steel player!

Me Too Pal (as far as getting "told-off") ... Let's NOT get started on pedal-steel players . We have some local old-timer Country Players (I Mean ... Real-Country) around here that wouldn't have to slink around the Alleys of Nashville for scraps anytime . Not to mention they like Montana better than Tennessee .

I got to play my Epiphone bass along with one of the Best-Local-Peddler-Steeler in the state last week-end ... I mostly-sucked but I hit a few changes right-on and my walkin'-bass went-over OK. They asked me back to play with them agin sometime . Can't beat that for a rookie.


EDIT ....... HIGH-POINT BULLETIN ...... LATE HI-JACK ALERT .... LOCALIZED CRAP-STORM WARNINGS .... STORMS MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN HERE-AND-GONE.

NOW ..... BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED CHINESE ROGERIE (er whatever double bass) PROGRAM ...... (nice thread title ... try that one at any brothel) .....

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by Bob Knebel

..... A choked-chicken bass can be way-better after it has been in the hands of a Good Luthier

Hmmm, that raises a good question. Although there's no disputing the value in hearing/playing an instrument before you buy, what of commissioning a luthier to build one? You certainly don't get to try until after they've gone to all the effort to build it, and I can't see them being too happy about building it just so you can try! (Perhaps I'm wrong. Wood-gods, any comment?) I'm presuming you'd have to have been satisfied with other instruments of theirs, though, so maybe that's the answer.

So here's another question: What about the concept of buying a basic, good quality bass (ie, fundamentally sound, nothing bad but but nothing special), and then having a luthier improve it? It's a length-of-a-piece-of-string question, I'll admit, but the basic question is: could the investment in having a basic bass worked on by a luthier result in a better bass than buying a bass for the same money (new or secondhand)?

Hypothetical: Let's assume modest budgets here, not squillions of $$dough. Let's say project budget of $3000? To limit the possibilties of scope, let's limit the work to a top re-carve; not sure how that breaks the budget up into bass vs work costs (Luthiers, need your input again here, please!). Assume the bass is fundamentally sound, all solid, with adequate/functional tonewood, no ebonised hardwood crap fittings, and equal bridge quality across comparisons...

Is this too variable a question in complexity/outcomes to answer? (and, Moderators, should I be formally moving this to a new thread...?)

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

Let's say project budget of $3000?

Perhaps I should also clarify; $3000 doesn't buy THAT much bass to begin with in Australia... (certainly not in all-solids)

The base bass (hah! ) for the above-mentioned question can also be second hand (it would almost certainly have to be, I'm guessing)...

Look forward to some stimulating debate!

[MIKMAN]

This situation, meaning purchasing a decent instrument and improving it, has been in my mind for at least two years. Living in Greece, where the DB market is nonexistent, it is impossible to try something before buying it, so some friends bought an instrument from a reputable maker and tried to improve it. Barring only one, all of them never achieved the desired quality level, even if most of them were obliged to seek luthiers outside our borders. Discussing it with many bass players and makers in Europe, i reached the consclusion that the critical stage in building a bass is the initial one, when the luthier decides the arching, the pattern, the tonewood's quality (density, stiffness, ageeing etc). The graduation pattern is also critical but it's only a parameter among the others. Improvements in bridge, tailpiece, soundpost etc are of minor importance compared to the above mentioned, so improving the bass via regraduation can have positive results up to some extent. In our case, my friends spent a fortune to various luthiers or "luthiers" and they basses remained mediocre instruments.
What would i do, supposing that it would be impossible to try the instrument? I would order one from anyone of our esteemed luthiers, trusting his abilities to construct the proper instrument and masterly set up it. In the Talkbass Forum we have some well known members, who serve with their companies the DB community for good. I would trust them without hesitation (watching our Forum everyone knows who are they). I'm sure they would deliver the best of the best to a faraway client, in order to justify for one more time their fame and their ethos. Some friends have done it and the results were above their expectations.
These are my $0.02
Mike

[Eric Rene Roy]

Forgive me for popping in here. It's not meant to drive sales.

At the ISB I was out with a fellow bass builder talking biz. Things turned to marketing and the forums. My take on things is that the bar is soooooo high for companies like myself that buyers expect the same tonal qualities at 3K that I can do for 15K+...and the power of a 14 year old at 2am in his underwear on a forum who has played the bass for less than a year has all the power in the world. But...it is with that thought (or fear) that every bass we make is held to that expectation from us before it ever leaves the shop.

That's all I got...nothing mind shaking. Not going to try and turn it all salesy on ya...just wanted to give you a take of how things feel on my side of the screen.

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by eroy

buyers expect the same tonal qualities at 3K that I can do for 15K+...and the power of a 14 year old at 2am in his underwear on a forum who has played the bass for less than a year has all the power in the world. But...it is with that thought (or fear) that every bass we make is held to that expectation from us before it ever leaves the shop.

Hi Eric,

Thanks for that; I can only imagine how tough it must be for you guys in what is a small & highly competitive market.

My question was more about whether such a venture could exceed the straight-up buy, not necessarily decimate it (wasn't my expectation). I actually don't have a particularly great idea of the differences between a $3K & $15K bass; what I do have is almost certainly not particularly refined, although I'm certainly learning to recognise crap. Let's hope my expectations don't hover up the top end, though, or I'll probably never get the bass I want!

Incidentally, me personally, I'm not 14 and it's too cold here to be stomping around in my jocks! Although I have been playing bass for less than a year and am oft inclined to stay up far later than I should.

It's also a damn shame that your shop is on the other side of the world. It would be cool to visit.

[MIKMAN]

[QUOTE ...and the power of a 14 year old at 2am in his underwear on a forum who has played the bass for less than a year has all the power in the world. But...it is with that thought (or fear) that every bass we make is held to that expectation from us before it ever leaves the shop...QUOTE]

With the power of my 50 years, studying and playing music since my kindergarden years (and wearing my horrendous pyjamas) i absolutely agree with you, dear Eric. It's not fear, it's not thought,
it is the enterpreuner's ethos that makes the difference.
Mike

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

My question was more about whether such a venture could exceed the straight-up buy, not necessarily decimate it (wasn't my expectation).

Yes, it can, but at what cost? Regraduating a top is expensive, I've been quoted 3-5K. There are also no guarantees you will like the sound afterwords. A well known pro friend of mine owns a Wilfer bass that this was done to by an expert luthier, and now it is a killer. I read somewhere on this forum that Arnold did the same to a Juzek with good results. Personally, I think if you can find an instrument that you like for the price you can pay, you take the crap-shoot out of the process, and that to me is a good thing. But if Arnold told me I would love the results of his regraduation work on one of my basses, I would take him seriously.

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Yes, it can, but at what cost? Regraduating a top is expensive, I've been quoted 3-5K.

Then that would blow the budget and therefore the concept out of the water.

Personally, I think if you can find an instrument that you like for the price you can pay, you take the crap-shoot out of the process, and that to me is a good thing.

True; of course, distributing the costs over the stages of the project could allow either more flexibility of spend, or even allow more spend in the long run (rather than stumping up the whole amount up front). *Sigh* Oh, to win the lottery...

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

True; of course, distributing the costs over the stages of the project could allow either more flexibility of spend, or even allow more spend in the long run (rather than stumping up the whole amount up front). *Sigh* Oh, to win the lottery...

That's what credit is for...

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

That's what credit is for...

What, getting me into trouble with the missus...?