looking to buy my first upright bass!

[INTERNETKING]

here are my options and i was wondering the reputation on these instruments and what not, im sure people here are more seasoned in this than i am.

i have the choice between 2 englehardt models which are the concert and the supreme between 2000-2500

i also have the choice on a far cheaper palertino model which may or may not be a good idea

i have the choice on a marcatto, which i know little to nothing about and then i have this guy in chicago who says hes gonna get me something chinese but good quality.

what should i go with here? any reccomendations? what is the "rogue(by rogue i mean worst brand)" of the upright bass world and what brands should i definitely avoid?

[uelliv]

If you choose the Engelhardt, go with the Supreme model. It is the best of the two models you mentioned. I'd steer clear of the Palertino(never heard of them) and the Marcatto(never heard of them). If you do decide to go with a Chinese bass, try a Samuel Shen. Shen's are very good basses for the price. Also look into Eastman Strings, basses and Wan Bernadel basses.

You can find all of these makers on-line and also find which shop carries these instruments.

Here's a site to check out also:
http://www.gollihurmusic.com/links.cfm

[drurb]

Welcome! Have you read the newbie links? If not, I suggest you do that ASAP. Also, do a search here for Engel, Upton, Shen, and other brands you see discussed. You'll learn volumes. Got a teacher? Where do you live? Filling out your profile will help us to help you.

3034

[INTERNETKING]

how bout them artisan strings? are they any good at all?

[PRUNEFACE]

Try checking out Nick Lloyd's website and looks at his Shen's. I think they're a much better value than an Englehardt because they are made in China, so you're not just paying for the labor. The Shen SB150 sounds exactly like what you're looking for -I own an SB180 which I bought from Mr. Lloyd. He's a great guy and will help you out if you have any questions.

(He has holiday pricing now, so the prices are actually lower than listed.)

[INTERNETKING]

the thing is is that im looking to slowly pay this bad boy off, does he offer looooooooonge layaways?

[drurb]

Originally Posted by PRUNEFACE

I think they're a much better value than an Englehardt because they are made in China, so you're not just paying for the labor.

Are you suggesting that basses made in the USA have substantially inflated prices as a result of labor costs?

[INTERNETKING]

Originally Posted by drurb

Are you suggesting that basses made in the USA have substantially inflated prices as a result of labor costs?

i remember this shop in chicago that makes everything on their own in the shop. half the uprights there range from 1600-24,000

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by INTERNETKING

i remember this shop in chicago that makes everything on their own in the shop. half the uprights there range from 1600-24,000

Never heard of that, but Englehardts are made around here.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by PRUNEFACE

Try checking out Nick Lloyd's website and looks at his Shen's. I think they're a much better value than an Englehardt because they are made in China, so you're not just paying for the labor.

Rather than just posing the question, I'll state my view. I don't believe that buying a bass made in China means, even in general, that it will be a better value than one made in the USA because "you're not just paying for the labor." There are plenty of counterexamples.

[PRUNEFACE]

Originally Posted by drurb

Rather than just posing the question, I'll state my view. I don't believe that buying a bass made in China means, even in general, that it will be a better value than one made in the USA because "you're not just paying for the labor." There are plenty of counterexamples.

I know, I know. There are no rules without exceptions, this rule being the exception

I just think how labor intensive making an instrument must be regardless of how much is machined and I AM making an assumption -that "skilled" American laborers are making more than the workers of the same skill level in China. Or at least that would make sense because they don't have as high (or may not even have) a minimum wage.

EDIT: Regardless, I think the different companies kind of cater to different groups -my impression of Englehardt is that they want to be today's "Kay" fifty years from now. I think they're intended to be jazzy/rockabilly instruments (although I have heard some that sound amazing arco) because of both their construction (laminate versus carved etc) so we need a little more information from the OP to give more detailed advice.
China deserves some respect haha

[PRUNEFACE]

Originally Posted by drurb

Are you suggesting that basses made in the USA have substantially inflated prices as a result of labor costs?

Well, not extremely inflated (as in thousands of dollars) but think how much it costs to make one bass. I don't think it's much more than $500 at the EXTREME high end (although I could definitely be wrong) I feel that they're probably spending a similar amount of money to the Chinese for the construction of their basses -based on my experiences with Shen. I also "know" (I dont have any statistics) that Americans get paid more than most Chinese. Now Upton has a great rep, so they're also a company worth looking at.

[PRUNEFACE]

Originally Posted by INTERNETKING

the thing is is that im looking to slowly pay this bad boy off, does he offer looooooooonge layaways?

He seems like a pretty reasonable, personable guy, so you should probably call and ask -it couldn't hurt to try.

[wayne holmes]

my 2 cents: you can not go wrong with either a Shen or an Engelhardt-Link- Both have been around a long time and probably more people buy them than any other student bass-I think. Why do basssist buy them? because both are good reliable makers and both are concerned with quality instruments. Each is always trying to improve their instruments, often without an increase in price. I did a lot of research when I started my inventory of plywood basses. I talked to several shops, teachers, and bassists. It soon became obvious that the Engelhard-Link and the Shen are a must for any bass shop inventory when it comes to student plywoods. In my most humble opin. Also, IMMHO, I think that the Engelhardt-LinK has a little more enhancement potential than the Shen. This could be because the Engelhardt-Link has a spruce top. Both have new models. Love the new Shen 190.

[drurb]

IMO, there are a number of ply basses available that would serve as good starters. I don't think that Engels are among them. I understand that they are built rather sturdily, are quite reliable, and that many players have done just fine with them. Still, IMO, their design (thin neck profile, low overstand, low fingerboard projection, etc.) and their sound fall substantially short of other offerings that can be had for essentially the same money. This is especially true as one approaches the $2000 mark. Engel has tried to take up the Kay mantle but, frankly, I've never played one that quite matched up with the best of the vintage Kays. For certain types of players and music, Engels have, to some degree, taken up where Kay left off. It would be a rare exception for me to steer a student/newbie toward an Engel. I acknowledge that others disagree and I even understand why it would make sense to have them available in a shop. This is all just my opinion. To each his/her own. Just my $0.02. YMMV.

[Rocky]

Here is my 2 cents. Check out upton basses, they have an all plywood model that they make right here in the USA for 1800.00. They do a great setup and they will give you full credit if you ever want to upgrade to a better model. I have owned a blond Englehardt as well as a Christopher bass. Both were decent instruments AFTER I spent around 300-500 extra to get decent strings and have them setup. The Upton price does not include strings, but chances are whatever bass you buy will require new strings anyhow. If I get another upright, it will definitely be an Upton bass. They do everything in house and even press their own laminates. They also offer a more road worthy ply that is 5 layers as opposed to the standard 3 which is cool if your someone that likes to stand on your bass like some rockabilly guys do. Upton also offers a 200.00 shipping credit! I would also check out Bob Gollihur's website. He also sells basses (Chinese), pickups, bags, amps, and has a wealth of information available on his site.

Here is a link for you to check out.
http://www.uptonbass.com/UB-Standard...n-Double-Bass/

P.S. I have no affiliation with upton bass whatsoever.

[wayne holmes]

Many comment on the size of the neck of a Engelhardt-Link- I just measured the thickness of an Engel-link and a Shen both at the same location(middle of the neck) you are right, the Engel-Link is a whole 1/16 of an inch less than the Shen measuring from top of the fingerboard to the bottom of the neck. I would recommend that a visit to the Engel-Link shop near Chicago would impress anyone. I have set up and played many Engels, Shens, Romanians, Germans, and a few others to include old Kays. My experience has been that the Engel-Link and Shen are the best plywoods in the $1500 to $2000 range. I often hear "I'd like to have an old Kay" My response in my head only is ---- why, the new ones are better made and sound better. In my opinion. Something to ponder- the thickness of the Engel neck is a little smaller, but they have a full thick new finger board on them which makes the over all thickness roughly the same as their peers. I suspect that many basses (from the looks of the thickness of the finger board) may use thinner boards or use used ones redressed. It is easy to take an old board and make it look brand new- except for the thickness. In my opinion. I think to generalize about an instrument is not a good thing unless one has the facts right, the actual experience with the instrument and can give detailed reasons for the comments.In my opinion.

[Fletcher Lanning]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

I often hear "I'd like to have an old Kay" My response in my head only is ---- why, the new ones are better made and sound better. In my opinion.

I've played Engelhardts on a number of occasions and I own an old Kay M-1. From my experience, the older plywood instrument has a richer, more forward sound. The Engelhardt was ok but it sounded exactly like what it was, an inexpensive plywood that was better suited to slapping. Just like solid basses, plywoods benefit significantly from age.

As an aside, I will say the difference is much more pronounced under a bow, in which that Kay wins hands down.

[wayne holmes]

Flanning-respectfully disagree that an Engelhardt sounds like an inexpensive bass, even though that is what they are. However, with a good set up on them, better strings, better bridge, work with the length of the tailpiece wire, and a better sound post, well, there is a big difference in the quality of sound from the factory set-up. And, of course, you have to also lower the strings by redoing the nut , and by installing a better bridge with adjusters. We are talking about a first bass here and the price range for a first bass- Engelhardt-Link surely is up there with any others- after the enhancements. It's unfortunate that the enhancement have to be made to get the best sound out of the E-L, but that's the way it is with the Engel-Link right now.

You bring up another point that I respectfully disagree with(somewhat). As far as I know, a bass only sounds better and ages as it is played. I am not convinced that plywoods get better with age(playing) I know that my old Kay opened up some when I played bluegrass regularly, but that was about it. This was a 1943 M-l- Maybe others can speak to the point(or question that I have wondered about) does a ply get better with age as does a carved?)

[Fletcher Lanning]

I will definitely concede that I have never played an Engelhardt with an after-market setup. As a ballpark, what do you think it would cost to get the most out of one of their bases? And are their fingerboards generally in good condition or do they need work out of the box (so to speak).