Loving the Dark Side!!-German Bass ID help

[Mesa]

I've been renting an old(er) German ply for a few months now, as I have converted to the upright side of things. I've grown accustomed to her face, and I recently had the opportunity to purchase it. It's been in a fairly continuous line of students of my teacher, so it has been well taken care of in its recent life.

There are a few torn labels inside, one of which says "Mittenwald". There is the common "Made in Western Germany" label in there also. There is evidence of a couple of other, now missing, labels, one of which says "befaBte", which despite my Googling, I can't figure out the meaning of.

Another TBer was selling a bass that appears to be identical to mine (*SOLD* FSOT: 1950s Hans Pfandner German-made laminate bass in Austin). His was labeled Hans Pfandner, but no real info on this maker is out there.

I'm not sure how the import market works for basses, nor am I knowledgeable about how basses are labeled, so any insight or possibilities are welcome.

All that said, I am loving this bass, and its provenance is of little bearing on that fact. My teacher is going to great lengths to create good technique, and, while I battled the beast mightily at first, things are getting easier. I am enjoying the upright far, far more than I ever anticipated. It's really exciting to play something that takes so much physicality and rewards that with so much, I don't know, feeling?
Anyway, thanks in advance to those who read/reply. You all have been a great resource.

[Mesa]

A few more pics

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Fellow slab convert here. I appear to be in a definite minority, but I really enjoy the old German plywood basses. I recently picked up something similar to yours for a song. Does yours have ebony strips along the neck joint?

In terms of provenance, well, good luck. Based on the label it was made between WW2 and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Whatever shop produced it made a lot of basses. Mine is similar, with (faux?) flame on the body and neck and a fancier squiggle on the back. Others labeled Juzek, William Lewis, etc. have turned up. Ken Smith says these were made in large numbers and sold to distributors who placed their own labels in them, much like Sears used to do with guitars in the 50s and 60s.

[animal52]

I can't help you with your bass's geneology, but I second your thoughts on upright. Something about the feel of playing the upright is very addicting, but so damn difficult at the same time

Nice looking bass too.

[Nagrom]

The big 'B' in German means 'ss', so look for befasste, and you find it's a verb meaning 'concerned with', or 'associated with'.

[Herbie 80's]

Originally Posted by KUNGfuSHERIFF

Fellow slab convert here. I appear to be in a definite minority, but I really enjoy the old German plywood basses. I recently picked up something similar to yours for a song. Does yours have ebony strips along the neck joint?

In terms of provenance, well, good luck. Based on the label it was made between WW2 and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Whatever shop produced it made a lot of basses. Mine is similar, with (faux?) flame on the body and neck and a fancier squiggle on the back. Others labeled Juzek, William Lewis, etc. have turned up. Ken Smith says these were made in large numbers and sold to distributors who placed their own labels in them, much like Sears used to do with guitars in the 50s and 60s.

My upright is the same. From my knowledge, with the Wilfer/ Juzek squiggle on the back, it also points to Hofner. Mine has the ebony strips at the neck joint as well, and faux flaming on the body and neck. It also says 'Made in Western Germany' as well, so made between WW2 and fall of the Berlin Wall.

Apparently, they could've also been sent to Pennsylvania as school basses. Weird that it would've gone down there, and then up here to Northern Ontario.

Here's a link to some pictures of my upright.

Help me identify my West German bass!

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Mesa

There are a few torn labels inside, one of which says "Mittenwald". There is the common "Made in Western Germany" label in there also. There is evidence of a couple of other, now missing, labels, one of which says "befaBte", which despite my Googling, I can't figure out the meaning of.

Another TBer was selling a bass that appears to be identical to mine (*SOLD* FSOT: 1950s Hans Pfandner German-made laminate bass in Austin). His was labeled Hans Pfandner, but no real info on this maker is out there.

I'm not sure how the import market works for basses, nor am I knowledgeable about how basses are labeled, so any insight or possibilities are welcome.

Much has been written on this subject here, you might do a search for juzek, as they were import basses labeled in the US. In short, basses made in Germany and labeled in English are export basses to US, Aus or UK, I presume. Maybe your bass was manufactured in Mittenwald. An importer can put any name on a label they wish for marketing purposes. Many names you find are fictitious, not reflecting a real maker. These basses are made in a factory setting and are not considered handmade by one maker.

[Marton]

we have 6 basses exactly like that one at school. IIRC they have been bought new during the 60s or early 70s.

[Jake deVilliers]

Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see the typical Hofner/Wilfer shield shape below the button...

Its not a Hofner because neither the neck/scroll junction nor the heel button match the Hofner currently gracing the far corner of the room!

It does have the Saxon Gamba outline and apparently it has your heart, which is the most important thing. Love your bass!

[Mesa]

Wow!!

Thanks to all for the many responses!

One question that I've seen asked and discussed in quite a few other threads (see:
Help me identify my West German bass!
and
Help ID'ing an old German Bass
among others)

is the meaning and usage of "Western Germany" on the label.

The implication seems to be that basses labeled "Western" vs "West" were perhaps manufactured in the period between the end of WWII and the construction of the Berlin wall.

Does anyone have any examples of basses definitively produced later than 1962 that are labeled "Western" ? Were West German products ever labeled "West"? It seems funny that such a wide variety of basses all have the exact same label.

Interesting to me, also, is some of the photos in other threads showing scratch marks over where some labels used to be inside the basses. Mine has a few of those. Perhaps exporters scraping off old labels to rebadge? Elves?

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

You are correct. I went back and re-read your thread. Mine came labeled Anton Schroetter, Made in Germany. It is very similar to yours, except the machines have fewer screws and the finish is much darker and heavily checked. Same weak E string as you described. Bill Merchant worked on it for me and speculated 1930s. I'm willing to guess the same shop made the instruments owned by the OP, yourself and myself, but at different times.
PS -- mine came from the estate of a jazzer who lived in the NYC suburbs and, according to his widow, gigged it professionally in the '70s.

Originally Posted by Herbie 80's

My upright is the same. From my knowledge, with the Wilfer/ Juzek squiggle on the back, it also points to Hofner. Mine has the ebony strips at the neck joint as well, and faux flaming on the body and neck. It also says 'Made in Western Germany' as well, so made between WW2 and fall of the Berlin Wall.

Apparently, they could've also been sent to Pennsylvania as school basses. Weird that it would've gone down there, and then up here to Northern Ontario.

Here's a link to some pictures of my upright.

Help me identify my West German bass!

[Herbie 80's]

Originally Posted by KUNGfuSHERIFF

You are correct. I went back and re-read your thread. Mine came labeled Anton Schroetter, Made in Germany. It is very similar to yours, except the machines have fewer screws and the finish is much darker and heavily checked. Same weak E string as you described. Bill Merchant worked on it for me and speculated 1930s. I'm willing to guess the same shop made the instruments owned by the OP, yourself and myself, but at different times.
PS -- mine came from the estate of a jazzer who lived in the NYC suburbs and, according to his widow, gigged it professionally in the '70s.

That's sweet. I love finding out about my old instrument. I'll have mine checked out some time. Mine doesn't have any labels in it besides 'Made in Western Germany', but it does have three pieces of paper that seem to be scratched/ torn out. Weird. The E string problem was fixed a bit after new strings, but it still is kinda dead. It's in need of a new tailpiece/ bridge/ soundpost/ endpin/ setup though.. that could be it

I do find it maddening that I can't label my bass exactly, though. I'd REALLY love to know the whole story of it. The only thing that I know is that some guy in Thunder Bay owned it, left it for ten years in a corner, and his mother sold it to me. Apparently, he played in the Symphony Orchestra, but who knows.

[MattyBass]

Glad she is yours..
Sounds like you have been bitten by the Bug....
Make sure you practice some arco..

I think now, maybe it's your electric that sits in the corner for ten years..

[Mesa]

Originally Posted by MattyBass

Glad she is yours..
Sounds like you have been bitten by the Bug....
Make sure you practice some arco..

I think now, maybe it's your electric that sits in the corner for ten years..

Thanks! Already my electrics are gathering dust.

Since I've gotten the upright, and under the tutelage of my instructor, I've been working from the Simandl strictly with the bow. All that groovy jazz playing will come in time.

[jonas]

Originally Posted by Nagrom

The big 'B' in German means 'ss'

not really … it's the ligature "ß", which can be replaced by "ss" - but it's not the same.

[-db]

Originally Posted by jonas

not really … it's the ligature "ß", which can be replaced by "ss" - but it's not the same.

Yes it is. Any word that has "ß" can be alternately spelled with an "ss" instead.

That's what I've learned, but I'm far from fluent in German...

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by -db

Yes it is. Any word that has "ß" can be alternately spelled with an "ss" instead.

That's what I've learned, but I'm far from fluent in German...

If you're far from fluent in German, what are you doing correcting a man who IS German?

Just asking...

[jonas]

Originally Posted by -db

Yes it is. Any word that has "ß" can be alternately spelled with an "ss" instead.

No, not in any case. You are right if you use capital letters: there is no capital "ß", so you resolve "ß" to "SS". Expample: "Straße" and "STRASSE". But it's not up to you: "Strasse" is not correct, you have to use "ß". (This mistake is often done by Germans, too, so don't worry … )

But, to make it even more complicated: in Switzerland, they don't use "ß" at all. So "Strasse" is wrong in Germany and Austria (and Tirol/nothern Italy, where German is also spoken and written), but absolutely correct in Switzerland.

Of course, that's totally off topic …

[MattyBass]

Originally Posted by MattyBass

Glad she is yours..
Sounds like you have been bitten by the Bug....
Make sure you practice some arco..

I think now, maybe it's your electric that sits in the corner for ten years..

Originally Posted by Mesa

Thanks! Already my electrics are gathering dust.

Since I've gotten the upright, and under the tutelage of my instructor, I've been working from the Simandl strictly with the bow. All that groovy jazz playing will come in time.

Glad to hear it.. Simandl is one hip old dead dude... lol
and his books are most excellent!!

Oh I did'nt mean to imply you should only work on your arco, just that arco is just as important..
You should be playing some funk nasty, sweet melodious Jazz as well.

With good Pizz and Arco techniques you can find so many ways to make beautiful music...