Making a (new) double bass 'loud'

[Keef Henderson]

Hi all!

This is my first time of posting on here so lets see how it goes!

I am soon going to be making my own bass along side a luthier friend of mine.

The whole plan/experiment is to make a bass that is naturally as loud as possible. (it is to be used as a classical bass).

The design I am drawing is of a 5 String violin shape 4/4 swell back and I want to know what factors I can try and develop and build in to make it as loud as possible.

What do people recommend?

Wide grain or thin grain? Small or large sound post etc etc?

If you can think of anything that will help me to make the bass louder let me know!!!!

Thanks for your time in advance!!

[Eric Hochberg]

Why don't you find a bass that you are satisfied with soundwise, and copy it, including dimensions, graduations, etc.? And make it playable for today's bassist.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Keef,

Making a loud, deep 5-stringer is considerably more difficult than making a loud, deep 4-stringer. That's because a fiver, if it is going to survive long-term, needs to be made stiffer and stronger than a four, so it can stand up to the extra tension. In my opinion, a fiver needs to be larger than a four as well, because the lower pitches do better with a larger air cavity.

[standupbassman]

one thing people don't think of is having a really heavy endpin. The heavier it is the louder the bass. Also, heavy tailpieces are supposed to make it louder but i haven't tried it.

[AMJBASS]

IME heavier doesn't usually = louder. I would say the opposite. I have found heavier tailpieces can have a darkening effect on a bright bass, and a lighter tailpiece can sometimes free up the sound of a dark bass. I have had this experience on a couple of instruments.

[Eric Swanson]

To the OP; you might do even better posting this on Setup and Repair. Several more folks there who have actually made basses before. Just a thought...

[angelopb]

-composite, parabolic (rounded) back, like ovation guitars. Like Carbon Fiber or something strong and rigid with proven acoustical properties.
- hi tech bracing system that will allow you to get away with a thinner top.
this looks cool. no clue how well it really works.
http://www.bouldercreekguitars.com/sbs.html
I think there are shapes that are louder than the classic fiddle shape.
I look at some of the other new instruments designs and wonder how they would work in an upright.
http://www.blackbirdguitar.com/rider_nylon.html

I guess the good thing about building your own is you are not limited to classic designs.

[Marcus Johnson]

No

[Bass]

No?

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bass

No?

Yes. As in, "No, I do not think attempting applying guitar luthiery techniques, especially those used in a guitar with questionable acoustic properties such as the Ovation (I owned one ), and also attempting to learn manipulation of composite construction techniques on one's first attempt to build a double bass, is a wise undertaking in any respect, especially as regards one's financial outlay, odds of attaining a workable end product, and degree of sanity and mental stability remaining at the end of said endeavour".

Oh..... IMHO.

[Jazzdogg]

To what extent do different kinds of DB strings effect perceived loudness when bowed? Pizz?

[Bill Bentgen]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Keef,

Making a loud, deep 5-stringer is considerably more difficult than making a loud, deep 4-stringer. That's because a fiver, if it is going to survive long-term, needs to be made stiffer and stronger than a four, so it can stand up to the extra tension. In my opinion, a fiver needs to be larger than a four as well, because the lower pitches do better with a larger air cavity.

+1. I bought a new Pöllmann 7/8 size 5-string in 1999. These guys have been making basses for 4 generations. The have access to the best aged wood. I think they could probably make their basses louder, but they would sacrafice something else to get it, like structural integrety.

I play this bass every day. Most days I get in at least an hour of scales. Over the 11 years I've done this the bass has really opened up and is even over the entire range. I think playing the bass is really a big factor in developing the sound.

[zeytoun]

+1 on playing the bass to get louder

I finally started to get serious about scale work, etc, and just keep marveling at how much louder my bass gets. I think the corrugated steel and plywood is really opening up.

[Rod McCaulley]

Make the top thin & the bass bar on the small side. Sides & back not too thick also.

[bejoyous]

I'd recommend Peter Chandler's book, "So, You Want to Build a Bass."

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Rod McCaulley

Make the top thin & the bass bar on the small side. Sides & back not too thick also.

That might make it louder but it also might not last too long. BTW, some would argue that stiff ribs (can't be too thin) will make for a louder bass.

[kmanley_29649]

I would love to build my own bass one day, but I don't have anywhere to do it, nor do I have the neccessary woodworking skills.

[DFW5String]

You might also want to consider these three areas:

1) The strings and setup:
Different strings on the same bass, same strings on different basses often produce wildly different results. And slight changes to the sound post, bridge, tail piece, even fingerboard structure can often yield major changes in the sound. Of course species and age of woods used adds additional variation.
For example, I have Belcantos on my 4-string maple back Pöllmann that really sing. But on my 5-string poplar back Pöllmann they seem dead at the moment. I am making adjustments to optimize them, but not sure at this point they will ever sound as good as they do on the 4-string. And guess what - Original Flexocores perform exactly the opposite of the Belcantos on the two basses. Further, Permanents seem good on both Pöllmanns!
You might look at my Orchestra String Test #2 posting under strings to see my results testing many popular strings on my 4-string Pöllmann.

2) Check out Bob Spear's concepts of bass building in the "New Violin Family Style (OCTET)" derived from the acoustic research of the luthier Dr. Carlene Hutchins, which includes strategic tapping and forming of the wood to tune the plates. Look at www.singingwoodsviolin.com

3) Consider 5ths tuning. It "opens up" the sound and volume of our instrument while giving it greater range. One of the many historically correct tunings of our instrument potentially now includes fifths tuning on a 5-stringer, Low to High C-G-D-A-E.
You can see more about Paul Unger's new 5-string in fifths on Bob Spear's website www.singingwoodsviolin.com and a good writeup about fifths tuning on Paul's website www.paulungermusic.com Also see www.silviodallatorre.com for interesting impressions of tunings, bows and technique.

[Bill Bentgen]

One thing not mentioned yet is height of the bridge and the resulting increased neck angle.

The higher the bridge, the louder the bass, and maybe, the crappier the tone.

[George M]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Keef,

Making a loud, deep 5-stringer is considerably more difficult than making a loud, deep 4-stringer. That's because a fiver, if it is going to survive long-term, needs to be made stiffer and stronger than a four, so it can stand up to the extra tension. In my opinion, a fiver needs to be larger than a four as well, because the lower pitches do better with a larger air cavity.

i would agree that if you want to make a really loud bass then don't make a 5 string bass, if you really want the low notes then put a low c or low b extension on it. also make really deep ribs with very high arching both back and front. best of luck!!