Marker Dots

[lowendforlife]

+1 on learning your way around the instrument without any sort of visual aid...it's all about the muscle memory. The only "marker" I've ever used is a small pencil line at the octave A (so I could see it) when I had to borrow a bass with a D-neck (my bass is an Eb-neck) at the VERY last minute before a gig due to a bridge mishap...::shudders at the memory::

[Chef]

I have teeeeeny little whiteout dots at 3/5/7/9 on the player side of the fingerboard. No one can see them but me
It helps a slacker like me find Dflat or whatever to start a song. I seldom look after that.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

Some joke. Probably cost him $2000.

He does use them, actually. In fact, if you watch him play, he has his eyes glued to the fingerboard at all times.

Yep. We all could watch world class violin soloists who keep their eyes on the fingerboard too. There's no shame in it IMO.

But no I don't use them. I've gotta have my eyes on the music. I have a much easier time memorizing melodies, but harmonies and counter lines are much harder for me to keep in my head.

When I sing there's no way in hell I can remember all the poo that's supposed to come out of my bass either

[mje]

My nephew's teacher used pencil marks on his 1/8th size bass for a few months, while he was training his ear and learning the instrument. (We're talking about a 10 year old without a lot of music experience.) But I don't think he ever marked the basses that followed (1/4, 1/2 and 3/4).

When I bought my old King bass it had a two faint side dots at the Bb and C (G string) and I used to refer to them. Then I bought a nice Czech bass without dots, and it didn't miss them. But when I play my inlaid Azola, I start looking at the dots again ;-)

[Bob Rogers]

I don't have any "principled" objection to using marks, but I think there is one practical objection to using them when starting that hasn't been mentioned: Perhaps the most important thing we figure out when starting is how to hold the bass in the best way for our body type. The ability to see markers should not be a part of this decision. (There is a "way around" intonation. There is no way around carpel tunnel.) I put pencil marks on the neck when I first got my bass. By the time my teacher (who had no problem with the marks) and I had figured out the best position, I couldn't see the marks in the first and second positions. If I had said, "I have to hold the bass like this so I can see the marks," it would have been a mistake.

I have markers on my fretless EB. I can see them fine, and they help me find the correct pitch. If markers could help me as much with URB I wouldn't hesitate, but I don't think it's going to work that way for me.

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

Yep. We all could watch world class violin soloists who keep their eyes on the fingerboard too. There's no shame in it IMO.

I feel like most of the heavy string players I see performing don't actually look at their fingerboards--Yo-Yo Ma and Joshua Bell certainly have their eyes closed most of the time, and you don't often catch the young bass phenom DaXun Zhang (who has more command of the fingerboard than anyone I've ever seen live) with his eyes open during a performance. And I know that when I play jazz (although I'm not a heavy string player--well, I'm physically heavy, but not *heavy* in a playing sense!), my primary "oeuvre," I often have my eyes closed through an entire tune, and am not even aware that my eyes are closed until the tune ends and I open them and think "Hey, my eyes were just closed." After a certain period of learning (in the long-term, career-wise, and in the short-term, piece-learning wise), it just doesn't seem necessary to look at the fingerboard.

But, yes, it's no big deal: use your dots provided they aren't just some kind of crutch to replace your ears or proper hand position.

[PaulCannon]

All I can say is that looking at my fingers has never hurt my playing, and in some cases, it helps. I don't use markers, but if I thought they'd help, I'd feel no shame in using them.

[Ben Joella]

I can't believe that this thread goes around over and over and it seems that genre of music is left out most of the time.

Let's try and take into account the level of technical perfection that some of the players (solo bassists with performing careers) are shooting for. These types of players, as well as any other vln, vla, cello player in the spotlight, are being judged by critics, audiences, and other players. The bar that they are being held up to is 2005 recorded perfection. That means that the tuner needle needs to point due north for 15-25 min. live. If any one in this forum who is saying "never use markers" can do that, then please submit your video taped live recording for all of us to hear.

Of course I agree that there are draw backs for students who are learning. The markers are a crutch at that level. But, if a pro decides that a mark or two is gonna give a better performance then so be it. I firmly disagree with the comment that the markers get in the way of the music. Maybe in certain styles, but with high speed classical solos, the markers provide a global frame of reference that helps keep the blur of fingers grounded. Instead of calling them training wheels, how about a roll cage or stability control, installed to prevent disaster.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Johono5

I feel like most of the heavy string players I see performing don't actually look at their fingerboards--Yo-Yo Ma and Joshua Bell certainly have their eyes closed most of the time, and you don't often catch the young bass phenom DaXun Zhang (who has more command of the fingerboard than anyone I've ever seen live) with his eyes open during a performance...

But, yes, it's no big deal: use your dots provided they aren't just some kind of crutch to replace your ears or proper hand position.

Yeah I know where you're coming from...and it doesn't matter whether we look at our fingerings or don't when it comes to playing in tune and making good music. But when you bring up Yo Yo or DaXun, you're talking about gentlemen who grew up in musical families and have spent a significant portion of their lives in dedication to music...you're not talking about a beginner who struggles to stand up, to learn to walk, to play even a single note in tune with the piano accompaniment. Why would you think that these guys wouldn't have been given all the tricks, all the support - including lines on fingerboards where necessary - to grow into musicians of such stature?

The issue here to me is always explosive and gets lots of either/or attention, because ultimately the bass and bow (and all stringed instruments without frets) has such a wonderful way of expressing itself as though it were a human voice. We can't look at our vocal chords and determine what restrictions they must place on the airflow to sing a note in tune, offer it dynamic expression and vibrato, tone, et al. It begs the question: why look at our hands?

Well to put it simply, it's because we can. What makes this discussion interesting and heated (read: fun to discuss) is when we ask whether we should.

To me, that question will remain forever and ranks with other questions such as "should we use angled endpins", or "should we use metal strings", or "should we use pickups or mics". I'll even add "should we wear bowties and suspenders with no jacket onstage" LOL

I don't want to belittle the questions of should because I, for one, think they are important...especially for teachers, the best whom I've found to be quite interested in balancing an open-minded attitude for new techniques and visions with the need for foundation, order and control of a student's development. Should-questions ultimately help us each clearly define our artistic standards, our public image, our goals for the music we want to share...even what fulfillment means.

I can see sending a musician into an early grave who just doesn't have any interest in playing music, but I think it's entirely silly to do so because he/she relies on visual references to get the job done. It would no less silly than to reject DaXun's own wonderful work because it is bowed rather than plucked.

I think we should let DaXun continue to use his bow with his bass LOL

[Jeremy Allen]

[Sorry, JohnnyL--this looks like a reply to you, but it's a reply to the post above yours--we were writing at the same time!]

Take your tuner with you when you go see Scott Colley, Rufus Reid, Christian McBride, or Drew Gress play live. The needle will point due north for four hours, even through solos in thumb position and a blur of fingers. I know this not just from hearing these shows but from transcribing live performances by the above.

Is there something about improvised music that makes it easier to play in tune? Does good intonation not matter because it's jazz? For pete's sake, no and no. First-tier classical bassists do not have a greater need for perfect intonation than do first-tier jazz bassists (except from the standpoint of playing in an orchestra section with seven other basses--that's a different issue, though).

[Ben Joella]

Originally Posted by Johono5

Is there something about improvised music that makes it easier to play in tune? Does good intonation not matter because it's jazz? For pete's sake, no and no. First-tier classical bassists do not have a greater need for perfect intonation than do first-tier jazz bassists (except from the standpoint of playing in an orchestra section with seven other basses--that's a different issue, though).

Please don't put words into my mouth. I specifically did not name styles or genres...just that different genres place different demands. Yes, classical bass is my field of reference and so that is where my examples are drawn form, but I have heard the super accurate jazz players you are speaking of and yes they are first rate as well.

I think it is safe to say that there are classical players as well as jazz players as well as everyone in between who place huge technical demands on themseleves and it is for these demands that I don't see a problem with the use of a guide marker if need be. I am sure there are players in all genres who are employing them.

[dfp]

nicely put, Johnny L.

as I see it, you just gotta play great, if you wanna make money. if you wanna have fun or make your own art, do whatever, the debate rages on. but if you want other people's money to become YOUR money, you gotta play great, and be in tune, esp. if you're recording.

so spend 5 or 6 years at college, or in a serious woodshed, and learn to play great. and keep a pencil handy.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Johono5

Take your tuner with you when you go see Scott Colley, Rufus Reid, Christian McBride, or Drew Gress play live. The needle will point due north for four hours, even through solos in thumb position and a blur of fingers. I know this not just from hearing these shows but from transcribing live performances by the above.

I have never hear anyone but one person play a variable pitch instrument or sing perfectly in tune for this or even a single hour's duration.

Sure it's not so far off as to be unrecognizable as the note on the page (or intended) for people like DaXun, Rufus, or Yo Yo, but there's only one guy I've ever heard play consistently in tune for hours without any sour notes..and that's Edgar Meyer. Listen to a live recording of DaXun...watch Gary Karr on his video...watch Rufus, and you'll hear the occasional "bad" note or line that could have been intonated a little better if the starting anchor/finger landed just north or south of its position during (especially) a big shift.

To be honest, for me it is kind of a relief to hear these guys not be perfectly in tune all the time and it gives me confidence to keep on going forward in some song without stopping and beating myself up for not being perfect all the time (lol, like I'm ever perfect at any time)

Especially when a player (or singer) eschews vibrato like Edgar does so much...allowing some kind of masking of notes that would otherwise be off and unpleasant to hear, being exposed to bad intonation is a big risk. Plus we have to contend with our own personal relationship to pitch and intervals (what we hear internally and don't)...but that's another can of worms that takes getting out of our heads and into listening to what is going on around us...

oh sh*t where's my pencil

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by Ben Joella

Please don't put words into my mouth. I specifically did not name styles or genres...just that different genres place different demands.

OK, you didn't name a genre, and I certainly don't wish to put words in your mouth. Your hypothetical bassist sounds a lot more like Edgar Meyer or Gary Karr (solo career, in the spotlight for 15-20 minutes) than Scott Colley or Rufus Reid, though.

It's pretty difficult (impossible?) to assert the importance of considering genre when deciding if perfect intonation is important enough to use dots as a learning device without implying that good intonation is more important in some genres than in others. (Unless we're talking about the differences between Western and non-Western genres, but that doesn't seem to be the case.) I get a little touchy when the old tuning-up joke ("oh well, it's close enough for jazz") seems to be lurking in the background; if it's not, I retract my defensiveness.

[Aleph5]

According to Edgar, he had his dots installed by a luthier as a joke, just to raise a ruckus.

Maybe true, but I remember reading from either this forum or the 2XBassList that Edgar had said that he regretted putting the dots on. So when I heard him several years back (--and went up on stage afterward to stare and drool), I asked him if he regretted getting the dots. He replied no and that if he did, then he would just have them removed. As I faintly recall, he further said he doesn't need them (of course) but likes having them for some of his favorite landing spots. So, an occasional glance toward them must help to some degree. FWIW...

[Chris Fitzgerald]

[drurb]

What a great thread! I wish to amplify one distinction. That is, the use of dots by an already-accomplished player vs. the use of dots in the process of learning. My earlier comment regarded only the latter. IMHO, such devices should only be used at the very, very early stages, if at all, and then quickly removed. Once overall reliance on the ears and motor-memory has been established, whether one wishes to use dots as an anchor for certain positions is, of course, a matter of personal preference.

[Ben Joella]

Originally Posted by Johono5

I get a little touchy when the old tuning-up joke ("oh well, it's close enough for jazz") seems to be lurking in the background; if it's not, I retract my defensiveness.

No joke intended. Good music is good. Bad music is bad. Dots sometimes are helpful for making good music.

and +1 for someone elses comment. Yes, I totally feel better about myself when the pros aren't perfect. Watch the Edgar and Bela DVD. There are some very candid moments that humanize the two of them. Not to mention the music is insanely awesome