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11-19-2007, 09:17 AM
| | | | Modern luthiers and 5 strings
A few questions re modern luthiers and 5 strings:
Which higher-end modern luthiers are known to have made a few five strings? Of course, Pöllman. Jakstadt has made a few. Others?
My understanding is that 5 strings are especially difficult to build, largely due to the extra tension on the top. I imagine it also takes some extra effort to create a comfortable neck. But is it really so different that one would primarily seek out those makers that are known to have built a few 5 strings or that a luthier who has made only 4-strings would struggle to make their first 5-string? In other words, is it like a bow maker that specializes in French bows making their first German bow? It might be a good German bow, but likely not as good as their French bows.
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11-19-2007, 12:10 PM
| | | | Two more: Thomas Martin and Bob Ross (for TB's own Paul Warburton). Others? |
11-19-2007, 12:21 PM
|  | .............. Moderator | | Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Stockton, Ca | | | Jean Auray made two 5 strings for Renaud Garcia Fons. |
11-19-2007, 02:23 PM
| | | | Peter Elias made 9 for the Chicago Symphony. |
11-19-2007, 02:51 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Santa Monica, CA | | | Since the standard in European orchestras seems to be 5 string, I would think that pretty much anybody who builds basses good enough for orchestras would have done that.
Whether there is much of a difference in building skills I don't know, but at least European builders would have experience with both. I personally have a Wilfer Bros that was ordered in 95 by a professional symphony player and played until his death, though maybe that isn't high end enough for you. |
11-19-2007, 03:55 PM
| | .............. Moderator | | Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Stockton, Ca | | Quote:
Originally Posted by R Sturm  I personally have a Wilfer Bros that was ordered in 95 by a professional symphony player and played until his death, though maybe that isn't high end enough for you. | Hey hey hey now!!! Bite your tongue! I've got an E. Wilfer 4 string that I had made 8 years ago and it's a fantastic bass. Nothing low-end about it! 
Actually, I know what you mean: looking over that list of makers, I pine for a high-high-end bass. |
11-19-2007, 04:04 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Chicago | | | 5 string basses
S.J. Krattenmacher is suppose to make amazing instruments. He built a couple basses for the Berlin Philharmonic. http://www.krattenmacher.com/index.php
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11-19-2007, 05:21 PM
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11-19-2007, 05:32 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Santa Monica, CA | | | Among that list, I like Ross's dragon head the best, but as you can see from my Wilfer/Goetz (made by E Wilfer, branded Goetz), I like non-scroll scrolls.
Last edited by R Sturm : 11-19-2007 at 05:40 PM.
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11-19-2007, 05:50 PM
| | Registered User
Bass Maker/Repairs | | Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sycamore, Illinois | | | construction
I've worked on a lot of old five string basses, some that were built to be played with only 3 strings, so I don't think the constructon of the body has to be beefed up. And as a bass maker, I don't think I'd change anything about the construction of the body except perhaps to add a few millimeters to the arching height for extra strength, but I hardly think it's necessary.
I mentioned this in another post some time ago, but the most successful conversion I've seen was on an Italian bass owned by a Chicago Symphony bassist. On that bass the fingerboard was extended towards the players side enough to allow for the fifth string. The benefit to this was that it kept the E A D and G exactly where they usually are. I can't tell you how many players have told me they couldn't get used to the fifth string because they were always trying to go to the wrong place on the fingerboard. That's what happens when you add a fifth string but just scrunch up the string spacing to abnormally narrow spacing.
Also, most US professionals tell me that the C extension gives a better sound than the fifth string because of the extra vibrating length. Classical players want the low C(or B), but many years ago it was fashionable for Jazz bassists to have a fifth string on top; a high C for those who weren't so adept at playing in the thumb positions. |
11-19-2007, 09:11 PM
| | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan I've worked on a lot of old five string basses, some that were built to be played with only 3 strings, so I don't think the constructon of the body has to be beefed up. And as a bass maker, I don't think I'd change anything about the construction of the body except perhaps to add a few millimeters to the arching height for extra strength, but I hardly think it's necessary. | That's interesting. As you suggest below, the issue may be the setup: nut, bridge and fingerboard. Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan I mentioned this in another post some time ago, but the most successful conversion I've seen was on an Italian bass owned by a Chicago Symphony bassist. On that bass the fingerboard was extended towards the players side enough to allow for the fifth string. The benefit to this was that it kept the E A D and G exactly where they usually are. I can't tell you how many players have told me they couldn't get used to the fifth string because they were always trying to go to the wrong place on the fingerboard. That's what happens when you add a fifth string but just scrunch up the string spacing to abnormally narrow spacing. | Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan Also, most US professionals tell me that the C extension gives a better sound than the fifth string because of the extra vibrating length. | The long scale length of the C or B extension sure does sound nice. I have a fingered extension now. I've never done a direct comparison of the notes on an extension vs. a B string on reasonably similar basses. The German orchestras seem to prefer five strings. I wonder if there is anything about the playing-style of the section, their repertoire or the halls in which they play that make a five string more appealing vs. an extension. |
11-19-2007, 09:21 PM
| | | | Brian Ristola makes great 5 strings |
11-20-2007, 06:29 AM
| | AES Fine Instruments | | Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brewster, NY, USA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by mheintz A few questions re modern luthiers and 5 strings:
Which higher-end modern luthiers are known to have made a few five strings? Of course, Pöllman. Jakstadt has made a few. Others? | I can't tell from your profile if you are in the USA or elsewhere. Here in the USA, makers like myself are reluctant to make five-stringers. If you take a commission to build one, and something happens (the customer runs out of money or doesn't love the new bass, etc.) you could potentially be stuck with a very hard-to-sell instrument. That's because in the USA five-stringers are not the norm, and will appeal to only one percent or so of the potential market for a relatively expensive bass. In Europe things are quite different for two reasons: 1) the much higher esteem given to new instruments, and 2) the popularity of five-string basses there. |
11-20-2007, 07:28 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Northern Virginia | | | Reactions to Earlier Posts
While there are some absolutely fantastic luthiers in the U.S. and Canada, the problems with five strings in North America include the following:
1. They've never really been popular here the way they are in Europe.
2. Because they never caught on here, few luthiers have much experience with them, and they really ARE different (I'm a five-string player, I know).
3. There's not much demand for them, so (as noted above), the vicious cycle never gets broken.
At the outset, let me add to the reference list above the name not of a luthier, but of another five-string player who is a serious student of the five-string bass, Bill Bentgen: http://www.billbentgen.com/bass/5_string-basses.htm
The old Italian five string in the CSO is a Busan that has been the regular orchestral bass of principal Joe Guastafeste for a very long time. |
11-20-2007, 08:07 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Northern Virginia | | | My Own Experience
I've been on the hunt for a great five-string for a long time -- even longer than I've KNOWN I was on the hunt. I think I'm finally pretty close to the answer.
Along the way, I've played five-strings by Prescott (converted, of course), Martin, Poelmann, Arvi, the Kolstein Fendt shop bass, and others.
There were good and bad things about all of those, but the principal issues always seem to boil down to these two for me:
Getting the bass to sound open, projecting, and loud; and setting up the neck/fingerboard so that the bass is easy and intuitive to finger and bow.
Some of the big names could come close to solving the second problem but not the first (i.e., the basses sounded damped). Some non-marquee basses have sounded huge, but haven't come close to solving the second problem.
For the past few months I've been playing a 5-string by Peter Elias that he made in Canada at the same time he made the basses ordered by the Chicago Symphony.
This bass is the goods.
My Elias has a huge, high-quality sound across the full spectrum. It has the best A string of any bass I've ever played, and the tone in the block positions on D and G is better than any other bass I've played. To put it another way, from a quality of sound standpoint, this is a fine bass; I'd put its sound quality/volume/projection up against any modern bass -- period -- and it compares pretty favorably with a lot of vintage basses I've played.
But where the Elias really shines, compared to any other 5-string I've played, is the neck/fingerboard setup. An earlier post accurately describes the problem: finding a string spacing and fingerboard curvature formula that makes fingering and bowing easy and intuitive. It might sound easy, but judging from all the other basses that have NOT solved this equation, it's obvious that it's a pretty hard trick.
On my Elias, the best way to describe the result is to say that it's just like playing a good four-string, except that the low B is there when you need it. You truly never notice the B except when you look for it. You never inadvertantly bow or finger the D or E when looking for the A, etc. The strings are simply where they're supposed to be. Any of you who have gotten "string confusion" playing other five-strings know the problem I'm describing, and this bass solves it.
HOW Elias solves the problem I can't quite explain, but here are two elements of the solution: First, he doesn't compromise on string spacing -- the spacing is identical to that on my four-string Arvi. On many other five strings, the strings are spaced much closer. That's not all bad, but it does contribute to string confusion.
Second, Elias has a neck construction formula that is unique in my experience and also apparently central to the success of the design. His neck is not "rounded" as much as the necks on most basses. Rather, the neck is more of a "V" shape, and having less wood volume between the thumb and the fingers really seems to help the player finger the five strings properly.
I do have one beef with the design of this bass (which I picked up from another player, who was not the original owner); and perhaps Elias has corrected it since the bass was made around 1990: The bass is on a Montagnana model, with violin corners and very small C-bouts. In my view, no one should make a 5-string with violin corners, period. Bow clearance is so critical that it's hard to feel comfortable on both the G and B on any violin-cornered 5-string.
The neck on the Elias was almost, but not quite, set up to cure that problem at the time I got it (almost surely the original neck position). However, after I got the bass Mike Shank moved the neck out for me just a few millimeters, and changed the angle of the fingerboard just slightly, and the result has been to cure the problem entirely. I can whale on both the B and G string now and never nick the bouts.
A great five-string solves a lot of problems for the orchestral bassist, and there should be more of them. I commend this example for anyone who doubts that such an instrument can be made. |
11-20-2007, 08:53 AM
| | | Quote:
Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer I can't tell from your profile if you are in the USA or elsewhere. | NY, NY. I've been meaning to visit.  Quote:
Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer Here in the USA, makers like myself are reluctant to make five-stringers. If you take a commission to build one, and something happens (the customer runs out of money or doesn't love the new bass, etc.) you could potentially be stuck with a very hard-to-sell instrument. That's because in the USA five-stringers are not the norm, and will appeal to only one percent or so of the potential market for a relatively expensive bass. In Europe things are quite different for two reasons: 1) the much higher esteem given to new instruments, and 2) the popularity of five-string basses there. | I didn't think about the issue of the luthier being stuck with the instrument. It also didn't occur to me that Europeans have a higher esteem for new instruments. I have noticed that shops like Pöllman and Grünert seem to crank out a lot of basses, whereas US luthiers seem to be lone guns making fewer basses. And perhaps that's evidence/effect of the market. Then again, it could just be my impression based on the length of time that basses have been produced under the Pöllman and Grünert brands. Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete G At the outset, let me add to the reference list above the name not of a luthier, but of another five-string player who is a serious student of the five-string bass, Bill Bentgen: http://www.billbentgen.com/bass/5_string-basses.htm
The old Italian five string in the CSO is a Busan that has been the regular orchestral bass of principal Joe Guastafeste for a very long time. | Thank you for the link and the information. Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete G HOW Elias solves the problem I can't quite explain, but here are two elements of the solution: First, he doesn't compromise on string spacing -- the spacing is identical to that on my four-string Arvi. On many other five strings, the strings are spaced much closer. That's not all bad, but it does contribute to string confusion.
Second, Elias has a neck construction formula that is unique in my experience and also apparently central to the success of the design. His neck is not "rounded" as much as the necks on most basses. Rather, the neck is more of a "V" shape, and having less wood volume between the thumb and the fingers really seems to help the player finger the five strings properly. | Congratulations on finding a jewel. I hadn't heard about this altered neck shape. Both Paul Warburton's bass and, I believe, Bob Ross's bass have a fingerboard overhang for the B string. This solution of having the "V" shape is interesting. Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete G I do have one beef with the design of this bass (which I picked up from another player, who was not the original owner); and perhaps Elias has corrected it since the bass was made around 1990: The bass is on a Montagnana model, with violin corners and very small C-bouts. In my view, no one should make a 5-string with violin corners, period. Bow clearance is so critical that it's hard to feel comfortable on both the G and B on any violin-cornered 5-string. | I am completely with you on this. I have very limited experience trying five strings, but even on four strings I prefer the gamba shape. One less area to chip or break. |
11-20-2007, 08:53 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: Alberta, Canada | | On this side of the pond and experience with 5 strings Mario Lamarre |
11-20-2007, 09:40 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA USA | | | As a beginner 5 string player I have to say I really value Pete's post. My current instrument is not so bad in those areas, but it clearly could still use some tweaks. I did my own set-up and moved the strings much farther apart at the bridge than the original set-up and that did help quite a bit. These were already spaced well at the nut, which is much wider than the nuts on most 4 string basses. Even though this is a European shop bass, I can see several differences between this instrument and its' four string counterparts. It has a different neck and fingerboard, longer pegbox, slightly broader upper bout. Internally, the bass bar is longer and the graduation thicker at the breast. It is clear that some makers build in differences that become less likely to be found on conversions. I don't see how a neck like the one on my five string could be easily fitted to a 4-string DB. And that neck feels good to me although it is not like what Pete describes on the Elias, it is more C shaped like a classical guitar neck. It did come with a generous fingerboard so I can get 1" spacing or a slight bit more at the bridge, but I think the arch (tighter radius) could be more.
Thanks for the information on the Elias bass. That sounds like the ultimate upgrade to me. What is his string length?
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