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08-29-2006, 04:06 PM
| | | | My friend says that the size of the body of the double bass...
is too small for the range that it plays in. He says that is a reason why the double bass (especially when its tuned in 4ths) is pretty quiet compared to violins, violas, and cellos.
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08-29-2006, 04:23 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Connecticut | | | Cool. |
08-29-2006, 04:26 PM
|  | Music Man/Markbass Enthusiast | | Join Date: May 2004 Location: Broomfield, CO | | | Per the laws of acoustics, your friend is an idiot. |
08-29-2006, 04:26 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Princeton/New Brunswick, NJ | | | How did he deduce that? |
08-29-2006, 04:49 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX | | | Isn't that the reasoning behind the octobasses? I'm pretty sure they were built to be scaled up from the violin based on the register. |
08-29-2006, 05:13 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Colorado Springs CO | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Blazemourne is too small for the range that it plays in. He says that is a reason why the double bass (especially when its tuned in 4ths) is pretty quiet compared to violins, violas, and cellos. | Has he ever heard of Acoustic image? 
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08-29-2006, 05:37 PM
| | Temp Banned (TOS Violation)
Endorsing: Ampeg | | Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Apopka, FL | | | Tell your friend that unless he wants a 9 ft. bass body, he might want to accept it. |
08-29-2006, 08:33 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Maui | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Tritonis Cool. | Hands down the best answer I've ever seen on TBDB. |
08-29-2006, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Blazemourne is too small for the range that it plays in. He says that is a reason why the double bass (especially when its tuned in 4ths) is pretty quiet compared to violins, violas, and cellos. | I have heard this also. Although I believe it's more a case of string length; that the strings should be considerably longer given the tuning. |
08-29-2006, 09:53 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Connecticut | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson Hands down the best answer I've ever seen on TBDB. |  |
08-29-2006, 09:54 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, PA | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Blazemourne is too small for the range that it plays in. He says that is a reason why the double bass (especially when its tuned in 4ths) is pretty quiet compared to violins, violas, and cellos. | I remember hearing something a while back about the acoustics of string instruments but I don't remember the source and I might not be remembering the scales correctly.
The acoustics of a well made violin are close to perfect. To get the same quality of sound as a violin a viola would have to be about as big as a cello, a cello would have to be a little larger than a bass, and a bass would basically need to be the size of an octabass if not bigger. |
08-29-2006, 10:01 PM
| | Supporting Member/Luthier | | Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson Hands down the best answer I've ever seen on TBDB. | rotfl |
08-29-2006, 10:38 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Traverse City, Michigan | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Blazemourne is too small for the range that it plays in. He says that is a reason why the double bass (especially when its tuned in 4ths) is pretty quiet compared to violins, violas, and cellos. | The Bass seems to hold up pretty well in the volume catagory compared to violins, violas and cellos. But the timbre is different and doesn't sound like a scaled up violin. But neither does the viola or cello.
If you want to become informed about this subject read about the violin octet created by C Hutchins http://www.newviolinfamily.org/eight.html
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Ken McKay - Michigan - USA
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08-30-2006, 02:46 AM
|  | Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Brighton, England, UK, Europe | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Ken McKay The Bass seems to hold up pretty well in the volume catagory compared to violins, violas and cellos. But the timbre is different and doesn't sound like a scaled up violin. But neither does the viola or cello.
If you want to become informed about this subject read about the violin octet created by C Hutchins http://www.newviolinfamily.org/eight.html | The article seems to be contradicting your point - as it illustrates a 7 ' Contrabass - which would be larger than a conventional DB? 
Listening to the best large orchestras in Europe, in London concert halls - I tend to find that the DBs are lost and don't come across as well as other strings except in quiet passages - the true bass of the modern orchestra is the Tuba!! 
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08-30-2006, 04:45 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Singapore | | | Hi! I think that it has more to do with tuning than the size. I read somewhere that tuning in 5ths help the other strings vibrate sympathetically so the sound is louder. So, violins, violas and cellos sound much louder than bass.
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Amir Syahir |
08-30-2006, 07:17 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Colorado Springs CO | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield the true bass of the modern orchestra is the Tuba!! |  Blasphemy! A heretic in our midst! 
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"I am beginning to see some improvement"
Pablo Casals, on practicing 3 Hours a day at age 90
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08-30-2006, 08:16 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Tritonis | 
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08-30-2006, 08:18 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, Ontario | | | Bass is too loud
I often play as the only bass in ensembles. There are usually 7-12 violins, 1-4 violas, 1-3 cellos, pairs of winds and brass and maybe a set of timpani but only one of me.
Audience members have told me when I have a rest, it sounds like the orchestra has stopped playing. I'm constantly told to play quieter or don't play when the singer has a solo and only play when the full chorus is singing and so on though I'm only playing the dynamic written.
The bass doesn't have the upfront volume of a violin, clarinet or trumpet but it does have a lot more carrying power. That's whay fog horns are low pitched. |
08-30-2006, 08:25 AM
| | Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Brighton, England, UK, Europe | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by bejoyous I often play as the only bass in ensembles. There are usually 7-12 violins, 1-4 violas, 1-3 cellos, pairs of winds and brass and maybe a set of timpani but only one of me.
Audience members have told me when I have a rest, it sounds like the orchestra has stopped playing. I'm constantly told to play quieter or don't play when the singer has a solo and only play when the full chorus is singing and so on though I'm only playing the dynamic written.
The bass doesn't have the upfront volume of a violin, clarinet or trumpet but it does have a lot more carrying power. That's whay fog horns are low pitched. | I know this is true in small chamber orchestras, as you describe - but my experience of seeing larger orchestras, with say over 120 members, is that the DBs are drowned out and the Tuba and Trombones provide the true bass of the orchestra - especially in loud passages!
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“Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.”
Charles Mingus |
08-30-2006, 08:45 AM
|  | Oracle, Ancient Order of Rass Hattur | | Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Connecticut | | | The proper dimensions!
The proper dimensions of the argument, that is. A thorough analysis of the issues raised here should consider at least three important factors:
1) The physics in terms of the size of the radiating cavity compared to the wavelength of the note(s) to be produced. Here one can consider the violin, viola, cello, and bass.
2) Room acoustics in terms of the frequencies a given room will allow to propogate to varying degrees.
3) Psychoacoustics in terms of the phenomenon of the upward spread of masking. That is, low frequencies mask high frequencies but not vice versa. There is a reason that it is difficult to drown out low frequencies! The explanation begins with the mechanical properties of the inner ear.
All of these dimensions impact whether and to what degree a double bass will be heard at the back of the hall against competing sources (e.g., violins, brass, etc.)
I realize I have not really provided answers here. If I were to do that, I'd have to give up my day job-- at least for today!
P.S.-- Here's a place to start.
Last edited by drurb : 08-30-2006 at 08:49 AM.
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