My last question before trying them out: Anyone using Engelhardt/Kay for Jazz?

gtrandbass · #1 05-12-2006, 04:47 PM

I must be boring as hell but I want to do my homework well before going out to try and buying my first upright.

I have three choices in mind I have been now considering from a mailorder company with interest-free financing for 12 months (practically a must in my situation):

- Engelhardt EM-1
- Strunal 50/1
- Shen SB30

Chris and other forum members kindly replied to my earlier post a few days ago that Engelhardt/Kay neck profile is too thin to play with a proper technique.

My simple question (hopefully last related to my desicion making here) is if any of you guys play Jazz on Engelhardts (or Kays with about the same neck)? If you do what do you think about these basses for Jazz? Or, are they really for bluegrass only? How are the factory strings on Engelhardts (EM-1 specifically)?

Cheers from cool Atlanta
JS

Nazar Jazz · #2 05-12-2006, 05:26 PM

you know, you can also try renting a bass until you decide to invest in a good quality instrument. some shops allow the rent fees to be applicable toward the purchase, too. good luck at any rate.

gtrandbass · #3 05-12-2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazar Jazz

you know, you can also try renting a bass until you decide to invest in a good quality instrument. some shops allow the rent fees to be applicable toward the purchase, too. good luck at any rate.

Yeah Nazar, renting is really an option for me. Here in ATL for they charge for about $35 per month for the three first months, all applied toward the purchase (in this case EC-1 at $1,300 -- ridiculous, right?...you can get a Swingmaster at that price...)

Sippy · #4 05-12-2006, 06:37 PM

I would rent. That's how I got my double bass. I rented it for $50 a month, and just paid it off.

natselection · #5 05-12-2006, 07:04 PM

i have a Kay bass that i use for jazz and orchestra. its about 50 years old n has a beautiful sound! i think kay is great for jazz overall

gtrandbass · #6 05-12-2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natselection

i have a Kay bass that i use for jazz and orchestra. its about 50 years old n has a beautiful sound! i think kay is great for jazz overall

Cool Nat! Can you elaborate more on your Kay's neck vs the same of a new Engelhardt?

natselection · #7 05-12-2006, 08:52 PM

hah, i'm afraid i can't elaborate on my bass compared to another..because i'm not very experienced with different upright basses..but i can tell you that the neck on my bass feels great, i find its just perfect for my hand (once again i can't really compare, the only REAL bass (other than school basses) i've played is the bass i own. sorry i can't really help you but the sound on a kay is so full and the bass has great vibrato too. i would deffinetly try one out before you buy one company or the other, i dont think asking on a forum could help much. BUT once again i'm a novice about diff basses n their characteristics

flint · #8 05-12-2006, 09:03 PM

let me add my vote for the "rent to own" crowd. That way you're not locked into anything, and you can find the bass that suits you.

There are several luthiers in ATL that will apply all your rental $$ to purchase price. That's how I did my deal, and couldn't be happier.

Flint

Chris Rhoades · #9 05-12-2006, 09:12 PM

I couldn't see why the size of a neck would make it hard to play with proper technique, and i think that just a bias opinion. I think a neck is just personal preference and makes little difference how someone plays. I own an Engelhardt and a Kay and I don't have much problem playing them. Renting is not a bad idea, but if you find a good deal you might want to jump on it.

ctxbass · #10 05-13-2006, 12:03 AM

I've played quite a few Kays and some sounded good to me and some didn't. I think you have to judge a bass on its own merit and not a generalization. The two that I actually owned, a '62 C-1 and a '37 M-1 (I still have that one), are not the same at all.

I agree with Chris that the neck should not matter if your technique is good, although it is harder to use the "monkey grip" on a really fat neck.

Atlanta is a big city. Try before you buy.

Barry Ogle · #11 05-13-2006, 04:05 AM

If you want to drive up to Tunnel Hill sometime and try my EM-1 just let me know. It is not for sale of course, but it may give you an idea of the feel of an Engelhardt neck.

ES1 · #12 05-13-2006, 05:19 AM

Allow me to chime in here and give my two cents.
One thing I think should be mentioned is that Engelhardt basses, bought out Kay basses when they went under. They are using the molds that Kay used. Most basses get better with age because the wood has time to cure. I have an Engelhardt ES-1 and play Bluegrass mostly. I have seen the group the Isaacs in concert and Ben Isaac is a master bassist who uses an "American Standard" bass to play on. Not all basses are created equal. Set up and the age of the bass has alot to do with it. Ray Deaton of "IIIrd Tyme Out" plays an old "Epiphone" bass. I can not tell you about the neck being to small on the Engelhardts, the only thing I've compared it to is the Cremona(chinese bass) and the neck is way to big on it. I think the renting thing is the way to go if you don't have a friend willing to lend you his bass to try out. Hope this is some worthwhile info to help you in your decision. Take care and Happy Bass shopping.
ES1

Steve Killingsworth · #13 05-15-2006, 06:14 AM

Steve Boisen (who occasionally posts here) plays jazz on a Kay and does a very good job of it. At one time he had some clips on his webpage. In all the great debate over brands and tone, just don't lose site of the human part of the equation. A mediocre player with a great bass still sounds like a mediocre player.

gtrandbass · #14 05-24-2006, 09:22 AM

Cool to know!

Barry, I very much appreciate for your offer to come see your EM-1...I found two Engelhardt dealers in ATL and will check them out, one is just 25 minutes from my house...

CamMcIntyre · #15 05-24-2006, 10:25 AM

Good luck with the basses.

I've played an Engelhart i want to say an EM1, and then an old, poorly setup Kay S1. The neck of the Engelhart felt different to me than the Kay, i realize they use the same molds and same factory, but-the Engelhart had a much more "u" shpaed feel to it where as the Kay [i think this bass was around 50 years older] had what felt a more gradual shape almost like a "c". Hard to play? I didn't know any better so i played them [albeit w/bad technique]. I was a slab player that picked it up for school bands.

I did play jazz on the Kay in high school [and classical music at that], and the tone of that bass was great. The action was sky high, non adjustable bridge, and strings [i think they where spirocores] where very old. The Engelhart had an ajustable bridge w/lower action, weichs, and one of the most notable things to me-didn't have the fingerboard bevel on the E string side that the Kay had.

I think that if you can go to a dealer who has a few-you'll be set. A 25min trip each way to try out basses would be well worth it. Good luck and i hope you find a bass that really speaks to you.

Now-i'm playing an NS Cleveland.

bpclark · #16 05-24-2006, 12:03 PM

An Engelhardt neck will feel different than a Kay. They did change the neck thickness shortly after taking over. It's possible that they have changed it more than once. I have a 1954 Kay C1 and an (mid 80's?)Engelhardt C1 and the necks are definitately not the same.

JazzDude · #17 05-24-2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpclark

An Engelhardt neck will feel different than a Kay. They did change the neck thickness shortly after taking over. It's possible that they have changed it more than once. I have a 1954 Kay C1 and an (mid 80's?)Engelhardt C1 and the necks are definitately not the same.

My teacher gigs and teaches on an old Kay and the neck is as thin or thinner than the 6 or so Englehardts I have checked out recently.

To the OP, the answer is YES, Kays and Englehardts are used by many of the gigging jazz musicians in my neck of the woods (Metro Chicago).