Mystery Bass shaped object

MollyKay · #1 10-19-2008, 09:29 AM

We found another old raga muffin bass yesterday (we bought it for the wooden hat peg tuners) to drag home and we are WAY out of our league to identify its age and origin. This is NOT vintage American made plywood bass…this bass is a beast we are not familiar with.

Our curiosity got the best of us…even after a 12 hour round trip drive we were not too tired to strip this bass to the white (at 9:00 pm last night)

and revel what it was…much to our surprise I do think this bass is very old. It has had some repairs that are not terrific but I understand why they were done the way they were. What I thought was a Frankenstein scroll head is…at some point in the life of the bass the scroll was broken off and there are cracks to the side of the peg head box. I guess the extra build of wood on each side was all done to re-enforce the peg head box. Also another delightful surprise was the fine purfling cuts on the front and back…there is no inlaid wood, just the fine parallel cut lines.

The top is solid and shows a wide “corduroy” grain along with a hint of a reddish stain in the wood. The back is flat with a slight tilt toward the neck.

I doubt the bass is worth much in its current non-playable condition…and that is not important at this time…I would just like help guessing the age and origin. We are still discussing if we should tare it a part or just look at it for now and ponder. For a good discussion I thought I would post the slide show and get any and all opinions. I have no idea how it sounds as it was in unplayable condition.

http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/m...view=slideshow

superman · #2 10-19-2008, 09:43 AM

Molly, look like you got you a carved flat back bass,, looks like its been throught the elmer wood glue repair stage,, but I've seen lots worse,,youre prob right about the repair to the peg box,, looks like a hack job to me,, but i would bet this bass could be restored,,it will take a great deal of work and hours,, they are not near as easy as plywood,,and the fact that its had a ton of elmers wood glue,,and who knows what else put in it,will make progress just that much slower, but I bet it will make a decent bass,,by the looks of the tuners, it fairly old,no real way of knowing,,and the original finnish might be just under all the over spray thats on it now,I've seen stuff like that removed and the original finnish still in good shape,,look like a good winter project for you folks,,Kent

lightningDolt · #3 10-19-2008, 09:57 AM

Great Slide Show, sorry I don't have any info but what a Great Project! Good Luck,let us know what you end up doing. Regards, Lightning Dolt

Jake deVilliers · #4 10-19-2008, 12:21 PM

It looks like a home-built to me but I'm not Kennyboy. Kinda nice top wood.

Is that an oak neck? You don't really show the neck but it looks like it from the top.
I have an old home-built bass from the Prairies in my bass clamp right now that has an oak neck.

It also has a cedar top which is WAY too thin but that's another story altogether.

ctregan · #5 10-19-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MollyKay

We are still discussing if we should tare it a part or just look at it for now and ponder.

If you choose not to attempt the restoration, I would be interested the project. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/smilies/hyper.gif

ctregan · #6 10-19-2008, 12:27 PM

Im having trouble getting the excited yellow guy in my post.http://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/smilies/hyper.gif

Joe Ergle · #7 10-19-2008, 12:34 PM

Sorry I don't have any opinion as to the age/origin of the bass. What a terrible mess that black paint made, hahaha. It really does look like it could potentially be a good looking bass; I love all of its unique features. What a pretty scroll!

thobbinghotrod · #8 10-19-2008, 12:36 PM

I saw a PBS documentary once that featured some scientists doumenting history by matching growth rings on trees. They could tell you what year any peice of wood grew and what year it was cut down.

I bet this has come up before on this forum, I should do a search and see.

uprightben · #9 10-19-2008, 01:28 PM

Do you have a blockless wonder there? I ask that after seeing the photo of the neck block, it looks like there is no block, just the front, back and sides glued directly to the heel of the neck. Everything I know aboiut those basses I got off TB, so I'll just let you do a search.

Restoration of a bass in that condition, with that much bondo or whatever it is, and the poor quality of the braces, cleats and patches is probably only worth it money wise if you do it yourself with a "learning experience" kind of attitude. I'm far from being an expert, but it seems that the whole thing needs to be taken apart, all the crude repairs undone and the bondo cut out and maybe even the back needs to be replaced. Then it would need to be patched up properly and put back together with proper bocks and braces. No small task, but if done right you'd probably end up with a good, maybe even great, sounding bass, and depending on how you're fix with small planes and clamps it probably wouldn't cost a whole lot more than a ton of your time.

Jazz Ad · #10 10-19-2008, 03:01 PM

I have no idea what it is but it looks awesome, if in despair.

Martin Beer · #11 10-19-2008, 04:08 PM

I'm no sort of an authority but the beech (?) neck, scribed purfling and general shape of the thing look quite like some of the late 19th/early 20th century German shop basses I've seen. Many of them seem to have led pretty hard lives!

riverbum · #12 10-19-2008, 05:08 PM

reminds me of my old czech when i first got it. after lots of work and a great set up, it was a very good bass. weighed about half of what my kays do and great tone. good luck with it and i am sure it will be worth your time...

MollyKay · #13 10-19-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superman

Molly, look like you got you a carved flat back bass,,llook like a good winter project for you folks,,Kent

Hey Kent...I am leaning towards a Germany flat back as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

It looks like a home-built to me but I'm not Kennyboy. Kinda nice top wood.

Is that an oak neck? You don't really show the neck but it looks like it from the top.

Hey Jake…yep help from Ken would sure be nice. We are close enough that we could take a drive to visit him.

I too think the neck is oak. We have restored several antique pieces of oak furniture and the grain in the scroll is real similar to cross cut oak. In some of the older furniture they cross cut oak veneer to give it a fancy look…the scroll has that fancy look went it was wet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctregan

If you choose not to attempt the restoration, I would be interested the project. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/smilies/hyper.gif

CT…we appreciate your offer and enthusiasm.

This project bass will give us an opportunity to learn new skills like cleats and scroll/tuning box graphing. I’m already re-reading Chuck Traegar’s book, again. This bass could be a long but fun process. I never thought we would own anything but plywood…so this is kinda cool. Thanks again for the offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uprightben

Do you have a blockless wonder there?

Not sure...the neck block looks like a pistal grip?

Thanks all...Keep the good information coming…I don’t think we will be deterred from putting forth the effort to bring this bass back to a playable condition. I would like to know if we are toying around with a non-descript run of the mill bass before we challenge our skill. My husband’s motto…a job worth doing is worth doing right. I have confidence in his abilities to make this a player once again.

ctregan · #14 10-19-2008, 10:41 PM

The neck is European Beech. Beech has a fleck pattern that is similar to oak.

superman · #15 10-19-2008, 11:15 PM

I just noticed in some of the pics you posted that you were useing paint stripper on this bass,,you must be very careful with that when working with solid "carved" basses,they are a complete different animal than a plywood bass. I have been told that if you get paint stripper in a crack you might loosen the glue or undo the repair,,or if you get the stuff down in a open seem or crack, it will make it very hard to get it to rebond with the stripper residue there,which means sometimes you have to disassemble much more of the bass in order to clean the mess out of the crack,, then reglue it. The luithers that I have worked with in the past all said paint stripper is a no no,,
I bet its going to turn out to be a good bass ,the top has wide grain to it which is very simmular to the bass I own which belonged to Joe Zinkan. and the neck looks to be beech, I do know that going through and reglueing all those back braces will be a pain but I'll bet it will be worth it in the long run, my .02 cents is that its a late 1800s early 1900 Czech bass,, a luither might be able to tell some by the purffling,, good luck ,, Kent

GerardSamija · #16 10-20-2008, 01:33 AM

Ditto on the neck being beech. The 'blockless wonder' type basses, whether from Bavaria, Bohemia, anywhere in mid-to-Eastern Europe from the latter half of the 19th century usually have beech necks. Heck, a lot of modern German and Czech basses still do!

This bass is in slightly worse shape than a somewhat similar bass I restored a couple of years ago, but similar enough in many ways that I'd be quite willing to wager it'll sound incredible as a jazz bass if put back together properly. These flatbacks can just launch the bottom end out there when played pizz, and the top end can be surprisingly clear besides. It will need the integral bassbar carved out and that whole area skilfully leveled of course, and a good new bassbar put in and carved well. That job alone can make or break one of these, or any bass for that matter, but these very light, delicate basses especially need great bassbars for both mechanical support and a great sound.

The back braces are a catastrophe, and probably not original at all. Might consider putting in a long X brace there, Jackstadt style, or at least a proper job of traditional cross-bracing. Have a look at how I did mine anyway, it might be of some help:
http://www.luthier.ca/repairs/bohemi...storation.html

Good luck, and patience besides. There are likely endless places to get repairs right or wrong on this one. Pay special attention to neck angle and projection - too much pressure on the top and it might just start collapsing, as I'll bet there is no excess of spruce in that belly.

ctregan · #17 10-20-2008, 06:19 AM

In some regards, It may be easier to build a new bass from scratch, than restoring an old bass in this condition.

MollyKay · #18 10-20-2008, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

Have a look at how I did mine anyway, it might be of some help:
http://www.luthier.ca/repairs/bohemi...storation.html

Excellent post! We will soak it all up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctregan

In some regards, It may be easier to build a new bass from scratch, than restoring an old bass in this condition.

…and there lies the reason that this is a good project for DIY’ers. The bass in its current condition may not be worthy of a highly skilled luthier's time or the value of the bass would be less then the cost to repairs…neither of theses obstacles are a consideration for us. We do this as a hobby and for the satisfaction of bringing and old bass back to life…nothing more. This project isn’t going to happen fast or anytime soon. We have a few raga muffin basses that all are in dire need of TLC. It could be years until we get to this project. We have the satisfaction knowing we saved it…BEFORE it ended up in a You Tube video being smashed against the side walk…as a recent thread had shown

(this bass was saved from a punk rocker that needed cash).

This stuff isn’t easy and with both of us working full time it is hard to find a couple hundred hours (or more) to devote to one bass…but scrapping it just because it is hard work…not an option.

Mantra: rescue, restore, recycle…they aren’t growing old wood like this any more. This is most likely the only chance I’ll get to have a carved bass.

Kent: we did not give this bass a name yet…maybe Ole Joe would be a fitting and honorable name. If it was German we were going for Gustav…LOL

uprightben · #19 10-20-2008, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctregan

In some regards, It may be easier to build a new bass from scratch, than restoring an old bass in this condition.

+1 I can't speak for ctreagan, but I don't mean that you should scrap your bass, just be aware that this project could be more difficult than starting fresh. My experience with home remodeling has taught me that dealing with other people's sloppy work and turning into something that you can feel reflects well on you takes a lot more time and effort than just doing it right from step one. I think that what you have there is worth the extra time and effort, though, and if it were mine I would be psyched to tear it apart and rebuild it.

Marcus Johnson · #20 10-20-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctregan

In some regards, It may be easier to build a new bass from scratch, than restoring an old bass in this condition.

Maybe true... but that just doesn't fit Molly and The Monkey's profile at all.... they were put on the earth to bring these wayward wrecks back to life. I can't do it myself, but I surely enjoy watching them do it!