"New" bass w/ repaired top crack

[skullhead]

Three years ago, I bought a new carved Chinese bass ($5K) from a reputable seller.
When the first winter came around, a couple cracks appeared. One in C-bout. The other is an ugly 8” top crack that starts at the bottom, about 1” from saddle on sound post side. If/when it progresses, it will go directly over sound post and under bridge foot.

Two years later now. No apparent progression of either crack. But I noticed a saddle-separation issue, and delivered it to my luthier. He told me it should be repaired and would cost 1K to do it. (No surprise there) I asked him to just fix the saddle separation and glue the top crack as best he could.

So yesterday, I get a call, and he says that he found that this top crack has cleats and glue from prior repair.

I’ve notified the seller, but haven’t received a reply yet.

So, my question is – what was the appropriate value of this bass three years ago, when it was a new bass with a potentially costly repaired top crack. What should I expect regarding reparations from the seller? (I doubt he knew of the problem when he sold it to me, but I feel he has responsibility to make this “right”, as SOMEONE along the way knew they were “hiding” a serious problem.)

Opinions?

[toman]

I don't think a glued and cleated crack is "hiding" anything. Who buys or sells a bass, even one supposed to be new, without looking inside?

[skullhead]

toman - Who would suspect a new bass from a reputable seller would have repaired top crack? I looked plenty - I'm not a luthier - Certainly not looking for repairs. It's NEW!

[skullhead]

Originally Posted by skullhead

toman - Who would suspect a new bass from a reputable seller would have repaired top crack? I looked plenty - I'm not a luthier - Certainly not looking for repairs. It's NEW!

And thanks for your reply.

[toman]

And new basses from China never crack? How can you look "plenty" and miss a cleated repair? I think you're trying to put your bad purchase on someone else. Buyer beware; you expect a new car dealer to not sell you a car that's been hit and repaired/painted? Business is business.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I paid almost twice that for a new bass and didn't put a mirror inside the bass. Maybe I'm twice as stupid? With a good repair, to a new bass, it may be hard to detect from the outside. Sure, people lie and cheat, but 'business is business' isn't an ethic I go by and I doubt most reliable bass dealers go by it either.
Skullhead, sorry to hear it. Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

[skullhead]

Yes. I expect a new car dealer to not sell me a car with a sheered / re-welded steering column as "new". Even if I looked at the column prior to purchase. Sure "win" in a lemon law case.

[toman]

I'm walking away from this one, but this attitude is exactly the reason sheister bass dealers and shady car lots make money. Not that I'm saying the dealer in question is such.

Maybe you should file a lawsuit; that's what most people in this country do when they slip and fall.

[skullhead]

Thanks for replies so far. Please feel free to opine on question:

"What would the price be for a new bass represented honestly with such repair?" Considering one represented as non-broken, and non-repaired costs 5K.

[Jake deVilliers]

I don't know about the price 5 years ago, you're not telling us what kind of bass it is, but it would be reasonable to ask the original vendor to fix the crack.

Toman, which country are you talking about?

[jimmyduded]

i feel for ya man, id know how i would feel, i bought a 200 dollar set of (will not name brand because they were very cordial)chisels(a fraction of what your bass costs but still a big hit to me) and 2 came with dents in them, they are supposed to be hardened to rockwell 66, i took it up with the company, explained how much of an inconvienience and upset it was and they exchanged the two chisels for new ones as well as issued a nice appology, moral of the story is they dont want their product to look bad, and usually will try to be very helpful

[toman]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Toman, which country are you talking about?

Why, the grand ol' US of A! Anybody remember that King of the Hill episode... "I slipped on some pee-pee and got me a $57,000 settlement!"

[scotty77]

It will be interesting to hear what the seller says. There's a chance that the top was fixed before it ever got to him and he didn't know about it. Otherwise, why would he accept it from the factory or distributor? But, if he did know about it and didn't come forward with the info, I would think that the bass should be fixed to new standards, compensated for the cost of getting it fixed, or be replaced. I know that any warranty period would be over, but this is not "normal" wear and tear.
I aggree with Jake that the seller should definately be helping out with repair or exchange.

[GerardSamija]

Just another opionion.... but in mine, firstly there's no way for any of us to guess as to the value of a 'Chinese bass' regardless of the timeframe or what you paid for it. I recently set up a very nice Chinese-made bass which was being represented in a prominent shop as having been made by an Italian luthier, as the label seemed to indicate. No matter; no one with experience was likely to be fooled, and the bass itself is really quite nice. Asking price was $15,000. The buyer got it for considerably less, after a bit of research turned up the Chinese wholesaler's site where the same model and quality level was offered at USD$6,000. Values vary depending on quality, how many middlemen involved, tone, whatever. I often set up Chinese or other Asian basses which I know wholesale for less than $1000, and are purchased for anywhere from $1200 to $3000. Are they a good value? Is the price fair? Well, if the buyer is comfortable paying whatever the price, and is happy with the bass, then I guess the price was fair enough for them. Profit margins are usually unknown to the buyer, so it's all a gamble unless one is highly educated in the specifics of the business and current pricing at the wholesale level. Your bass might have been worth $5k or it might be 'worth' less or more, depending on how well it performs both musically and as a physical object.

Now, the issue of selling as 'new' an instrument with a weak repair (cleats on a soundpost crack are no way going to hold in the long term) to a major crack is fraudulent, if the seller was aware of the repair. Purchasing any instrument without an independent luthier's consultation is reckless on your part. So there were two errors here, at least, more if the seller was lied to when he/she purchased the instrument themselves. It is not all that rare for cheaper instruments to have factory repairs, when flaws in the wood are found late in the making for example. Heck, even a lot of very fine instruments have pitch pocket patches, elongated spliced-in sections of similar wood to replace carved out sap found late in the carving process. There's no shame in such repairs. But a major crack probably caused by shrinkage is serious, and such a weak repair should never have been represented as 'new.' I'm a bit puzzled that it was not visible from the outside of the belly, as such things are next to impossible to retouch invisibly with most varnish types. Is it possible you overlooked the outside evidence? Or is it that the repair was executed before varnishing, and thus happened in the factory?

Anyway, next time you buy a bass, do take the trouble to bring it to a reputable luthier and have it examined, with lights and mirrors inside as well as the usual outside inspection. All manner of trouble can lie ahead when this simple precaution is not observed. Most luthiers will do this sort of examination for a small fee, or even free (as is my habit), given the potential good will generated by an honest assessment of the instrument.

Should you sue, or request compensation? Up to you. I wouldn't. I'd kick myself a lot, and probably contact the seller and let them know I wasn't too happy about such a horrid discovery, but asking them for money at this time seems unreasonable to me.

As for Jake's 'what country' question, I'm guessing the poster was referring to the famously litigious behavior of U.S. citizens, so much so that G. W. Bush proclaimed in his last political campaign that he would do things to end frivolous lawsuits, and this was much discussed by the pundits. Has he done something? Who knows? I'm Canadian, and up here we tend to focus on having regular and deep belly laughs that such a twit could actually find himself running a country, and for TWO terms no less! Go figure. Good for a laugh anyway, and the odd tear.

[skullhead]

Thanks again for all the replies.

I’m now looking at this in a different light. For the past two years I’ve had a bass I like that had a severe top crack that I somehow caused that was in need of a $1K repair. Now I have a bass I like that has a severe top crack that I most likely had nothing to do with, that may NOT need a $1K repair.

As far as lawsuit goes, I wouldn’t consider it, for fear I’d probably end up getting countersued for the cleating I was never charged for pre-purchase. Maybe the system “works”!

The seller says he was unaware of the problem and seems like he’s willing to work something out.

And for any other fools out there buying new carved instruments, take the necessary steps to ensure your new bass is everything it SHOULD be.