New basses by independent builders vs. old basses

[Uncletoad]

I'm going to buy a carved bass in the $20K to $25K range in the next 12 months or so. I've already begun looking at things and I've discovered an issue I'm looking for opinions about.

All things being equal I prefer the sound of a well made older bass. They appear to be warm and rich in a way that newer instruments need some time to get to. I've played a lot of crap that is old and kind of expensive. I'm glad I know enough to steer clear of it. I've played some stuff that is well out of my price range that has knocked my socks off. I can't go there. Nothing old I've played in my price range is calling my name yet. I've got a lot more basses yet to play though.

It seems that there are lots of basses up to this price range that are older but have issues. Some of those are fixable some are not. Those that are fixable push the price of the bass out of my price range or above what one "should" pay for that particular instrument. As they sit unless the bass has been restored to a daily driver condition by modern techniques it will need a bunch more money thrown at it. Perhaps they are just priced to high. Thing is I'm not one to buy a box then throw a bunch more money at it and hope I fall in love with it when it's done. For me it's got to be right when I play it. For that kinda bread I'm not buying a fixer upper.

I'm also discovering that there are some extremely well made new basses in that price range that beat the pants off a lot of the stuff that's older, in terms of balance, projection and construction. I'd bet they are more durable too. I've played two newer basses, one brand new, that played and sounded better than all of the old stuff in my price range I've played so far. My caveat with them is they don't have that something in the sound that old basses do, and most likely won't in the time I have left to play them.

I'm assuming that "opening up" and "getting old" are two different things, the former happens quickly the latter over more than 50 years. Rearrange that thinking if you like.

I still have a bunch of traveling and bass playing to do before I plunk down some dough. It's going to take awhile just to be able to get to where these instruments are. Generally I think the bass that is next for me will appear and I won't need to ask questions about it, I'll just "know". Right now I'm doing a mental exercise that is trying to square off my "old bass" bias with the discovery that these "new basses" are pretty damn good and in lots of ways better than the old basses. The bass buyers that get these things when they are "old basses" are in for a treat.

So...have at it.

[Eric Swanson]

Best thing I have played that matches your budget and preferences is my friend's old Pfretzschner. Light, room-filling volume under the bow, even sound, cleanly made, and with a transparent tone.

I am not suggesting that you steal his bass, but that the older factory instruments (rather than the bijoux one-off jobs from days gone by) may be where you end up, if you want old, $20K, in good repair, and reasonably well-made.

If you become willing to buy "new", there are many folks making sweet new basses, as you know...

[ctregan]

Bass pedigree = who played it.
Find an old bass with a story to tell.

[robobass]

Are you coming to Germany on your quest? The exchange rate sucks, but there a lot of great Geigenbauer here. My only issue with buying a new instrument in this price range is investment value. A vintage instrument with papers seems a much safer bet.
Robobass

[KSB - Ken Smith]

There are a lot of Basses priced in that range but let me say this. Do not buy any Bass that is not either fully restored to the highest standards (not just patched up) or one that you can accurately judge the cost to put it in 100% condition.

It is easy to put a price tag for an old Bass but so many of them cost as much to fix if not more than they are worth. By 'fix' I mean something that I can close my eyes on and not worry about or use a microscope and not find any fault with the work previously done.

A friend on mine bought a Bass in a large shop in NY (no names). First off, it was sold a a mid-late 19th century French Mirecourt Bass. When he took of the cover to show me, I said with the zipper half way up the Rib on one side that it was German, period! He then showed me the Bass up and down and how and why they call it French. I told him in 2 words 'it's German'. Recently Arnold was here and looked at this French style Bass and said 'Yup, German'.

Now, this shop was asking in the 20s for this bass. If it was a Jacquet or Claudot, maybe the price is ok but maybe not. The Bass needs ALL kind of work including the Bassbar RE-DONE and a mold for the Top as it is sunken at the bottom. THIS is how they sell a restored Bass, 'HALF ASS'ED REPAIRED' to someone who doesn't know any better and trusts the reputation of a large famous shop that fixes and sells a lot of Basses.

When I see a Bass fixed and then sold like this, I know one thing to do. STAY CLEAR of the shop or at least leave my wallet at home.

Most people would accept that Bass as-is for French or German either way but still think the deal was ok. Well, now that this guy has seen my Basses and has seen how I get them restored and what I will or will not accept, he wants to send this "German/false French Bass' in for a full restoration. If done correctly including replacing the POS Fingered C-Extension he was charged an additional 2k for (should have been like Arnold's or Jeff's for that price), then he will spend close to what he paid for the Bass originally because everything on that Bass must be un-done, re-done and new things done to fix stuff that was just left as-is as well.

So, when I hear someone here mention they are ready to spend, the lights start flashing because you are a Sheep in a Wolf's domain most of the time. Believe it or not!

Be Careful!

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I think the bass that is next for me will appear and I won't need to ask questions about it, I'll just "know".

That about says it all. Put your bias aside and try to shop "blindfolded". Providing you find a bass that is structurally sound, go with your gut.

[Uncletoad]

I appreciate the cautionary words Ken. That's a whole nuther can o worms with the old guys. I'm not one to spend bread foolishly or without my due dilligence. I hope you weigh in on the old/new thing as well.

Can't go overseas to look at basses. Gotta find it east of the Mississippi and North of the Mason/Dixon. Shouldn't be a problem though. Plenty of good stuff.

I guess what I'm asking now that I read everything and reread what I wrote is do I give up the "old" bass thing for the new build, or do I wade through the sharks, and the BS, and the running around, for the holy grail mid priced old guy? And if I do that, what am I missing, what am I gaining?

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

That about says it all. Put your bias aside and try to shop "blindfolded". Providing you find a bass that is structurally sound, go with your gut.

Yea. At the end of the day I'm aware that every instrument I've played for more than a month chose me.

Poor bastard.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Wonderful thread topic, and great advice from all corners so far.

Phil: how (if at all) to you feel the subject of "arco vs pizz" fits into this whole discussion? I know you're mainly a pizz player, and that you play in a lotta dive-like establishments. For me, even though I'm just starting to get into the world of arco for practice/self-improvement purposes, I can feel a difference between older and newer basses when it comes to arco playing, and here I like the warm, loose feel of the older basses. But for pizz, I've not yet found a really old bass that I like better than newer basses. How does any of this affect your decision (if at all)?

[Sam Sherry]

I've been the first owner of a few basses. One in particular just never "opened up."

Let's return to the advice we reflexively offer newbies around here: "Try hard to play the bass you're buying." If you are commissioning a $25k bass which is not built yet, that's a $25k risk.

No amount of track-record is ever a guarantee about a particular instrument. People who are in a position to know have assured me that there are "nice-but-not-amazing-sounding" Stradivari violins.

Happy hunting, Phil. Share your journey, please -- you're on a a path I am not able to travel first-hand.

[Martin Sheridan]

When I had my shop in Chicago we used to do a lot of blindfold tests especially when the player was having trouble making their decision. Often the player would make another choice than their original pick including changing from an old bass to a new one.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

On the New, I have played Basses from Custom builds to Shop made Basses. Each Bass regardless of beauty, craftsmanship, woods, model etc etc, has its own sound.

That said, it's no difference than the old Basses are as far as good and bad or more accurately, what's best for you for what you want the Bass to do.

On the Arco vs. Pizz shopping, a Bassist playing Symphony stuff will have a harder time in the lower ranges of the price scale as that music is demanding and also must respond well with the Bow. You have in general more Basses that Pizz well (as most play with an amp anyway) than you have Basses that Bow well.

This is why Student grade shop Basses like Juzek's or other German Basses sell for less than modern Italian Basses of a similar age. The Italian Basses were more often hand made to play with the Bow while the Juzek imports were ordered to meet a price point mainly for the School supply business.

I know of a few good German/Czech Basses labeled or not that work ok for an orchestra but are killer Jazz basses. These are on the upper end of the Germanic Bass scale of the last 60-120 years. Condition wise though like I mentioned earlier may suit you but may not pass inspection for others looking for expert work inside. The German Shop Basses are hit and miss sound and condition wise but there are so many out there, it's not so hard to find one.

For me, I would prefer a modern handmade Italian Bass that has a refined tone that can Pizz or Bow but may be only 30-40 years old. These prices (in good repair) will start at about where the best of the Germanic stock end (if properly priced). Also, they will go up in value more than a common Shop Bass.

On the new Basses again, some makers make a Bass from time to time and then show it. That is about as good as you can get because you will know if you like it off the bat or not. If it sounds good, it should get better with age if also made well. If the sound isn't what you like, don't' buy it hoping it will change in your favor. You may not live long enough to find out for one and second, it just might never be the sound you are looking for.

Like all markets today from Homes, to Cars to Clothing to Basses. There is plenty available and it's a Buyers market. Shop carefully. If in that time of shopping your tastes change go with the flow (or with the Force, up to you.. lol .)

[Jeremy Darrow]

I'm in precisely the same spot as you Phil, same time frame roughly, same price range. I have decided almost certainly that I'm going to buy a new bass for couple of reasons. First, I think this is a great time to buy a new bass. There are some really great builders who are making instruments that are as good, or better than what's already out there.
Second, the potential health problems that an older bass can have. Maybe repairs have been done correctly, maybe not. Maybe the bass is about to collapse, maybe not. It seems like a crap shoot to me unless you really do your due diligence in researching your bass. But then you're still undertaking the defense of a fragile antique instrument every time you take it out of the house. It's fine if your willing to do it, but I don't like to.
Third, if you commission a bass you can work with your luthier to get what you're really after. If you know what you're really after, that's what I'm working on right now. Like you, I'm going to play a lot of basses in the next year. I suppose that you can't build in old, but maybe you can. I honestly don't know. (Maybe this last one is a bit pie-in-the-sky.)
Fourth, I think that buying and commissioning new basses is a just good thing to do. The more new ones get made, the better they get. Everyone from students to pros then have better new instruments available to them at more affordable prices.

Let's compare notes as we go. I think you're a much more experienced bass hunter than me, so I'd like to hear what your thoughts are as you move forward.
Jeremy

[Eric Hochberg]

Definitely go with your gut and let your ears be your guide. When you hear the sound you want, you'll know it, especially after going through a lot of basses. That was my experience in my recent bass quest. The old vs. new thing is something to generalize about, but I think it could be possible to find a new bass that has a sound you like. At the 2005 ISB, I played 3 new basses (Arnold's Ergonomic, Nick Lloyd's, and a Poellman) that sounded great and that I'd be very happy about owning and playing. I also played a new 9k Hungarian that had an excellent sound and not new sounding at all.

I finally bought a 100 year old German/Czech shop bass that to my ear has a quality of tone equal to the 20K handmade modern instruments I played and with the older vibe. Of course, I had it checked out by my luthier first and made sure the repair numbers made sense within my budget and value of the instrument put into good shape. One caveat on this experience, it's been tough on my middle aged and well used hands and arms to adjust to a different axe after playing the same bass for 30 years. Make sure the new bass "fits" you!

I know you know this, but be prepared to put some time and legwork into this (especially if you decide to restore an older bass). You may have to wade through a lot of junk before you find your baby.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

For me, I would prefer a modern handmade Italian Bass that has a refined tone that can Pizz or Bow but may be only 30-40 years old. These prices (in good repair) will start at about where the best of the Germanic stock end (if properly priced). Also, they will go up in value more than a common Shop Bass.

Ken, where is that price point?

[RCWilliams]

Hit the road Toad, find the best basses, blues, and BBQ and make a tour of it. If you make it to kc you can play every thing in the shop, blind folded or otherwise, and I'll take you to Arthur Bryants for lunch.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Ken, where is that price point?

Well, I know of 3 Basses available in the USA now by G. Lombardi made from the 1970-80s approx. I have heard prices from the mid 20Ks - 30s. Also, I know of 3 Basses by Bandini, 2 here in USA that are the same range and vintage.

Earlier Italian Basses from the first half of the 20th century have been as high as the 40Ks-80s for the best examples but not in every case.

I have not seen a German Bass sell for over 25k unless it was something very very special but the Shop type - handmade shop types from the 19th-early 20th centuries have ranged from single digits and up into the teen$ on average with a few topping 20k. Remember, there were tons of these Basses made and imported with various labels to unless it's an actual known maker, the price does have a ceiling in the real world as far as I am concerned.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Phil: how (if at all) to you feel the subject of "arco vs pizz" fits into this whole discussion? I know you're mainly a pizz player, and that you play in a lotta dive-like establishments. For me, even though I'm just starting to get into the world of arco for practice/self-improvement purposes, I can feel a difference between older and newer basses when it comes to arco playing, and here I like the warm, loose feel of the older basses. But for pizz, I've not yet found a really old bass that I like better than newer basses. How does any of this affect your decision (if at all)?

I dunno. I plan on keeping my Cleveland. It's a great bass and really I have no need for another on most of the gigs that I play. Mostly I'm trying to grow some. I practice arco at home when I have shed time. I hardly do anything else in the short shed time I can get given my busy life. The Cleve doesn't do it there all that well. Moreover in playing a bunch of carved basses I realize that some of the sound I hear in my head lives there and not in my Cleveland so much. Even your hybrid Lascalla has more of that than the Cleveland.

I played Brian Glassman's Prescott when I was in NJ and about fell over dead. It's exactly the sound I've been wanting. Arco or pizz it was a dead on bullseye. Now if that bass were for sale it would be out of my price range anyhow but that's the sound new or old.

I don't know if that's the sound of the old bass, the rebuild, or something else. I don't know if that sound is available in a new bass either.

The other corollary is that Prescott is a bass that if it were mine would stay home in deference to the Cleveland on a lot of gigs. I'd hate to have it get trashed, which is not something I worry about all that much with the Cleveland. Something else newer or less pedigreed maybe would see more of the trench than that. I'm not sure how that would shake out.

All the same it would be tough to leave my A bass at home.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by RCWilliams

Hit the road Toad, find the best basses, blues, and BBQ and make a tour of it. If you make it to kc you can play every thing in the shop, blind folded or otherwise, and I'll take you to Arthur Bryants for lunch.

Hmmn. That sounds like fun. I'll have to schedule that around a Baseball game too.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

At the 2005 ISB, I played 3 new basses (Arnold's Ergonomic, Nick Lloyd's, and a Poellman) that sounded great and that I'd be very happy about owning and playing. I also played a new 9k Hungarian that had an excellent sound and not new sounding at all.

I finally bought a 100 year old German/Czech shop bass that to my ear has a quality of tone equal to the 20K handmade modern instruments I played and with the older vibe.

So why exactly after playing all those new basses did you go with the old one. That is the exact point of this thread. You're not the only one I know who went down that road. Can you elaborate on that choice?