new detachable neck bass

[simandlhandle]

I have a new bass, and I hope this story is of interest to my fellow talkbassers.
I had a tour coming up, and decided to get a travel bass. I tried a few, and liked the Yamaha 200 best, of the stick variety. The problem was that the people who I play with(who employ me; various bands) didn't. They were fine about the sound of it, but the comments were," Yes it sounds OK, but your'e not going to stop playing double bass are you?".
I therefore thought I would get a normal bass which was more portable; with a removable neck. After reading various threads on Talkbass, I contacted Tobias Poeling. I decided to get a Shen SB150, which is the model with laminate back and sides and a carved front as it should be hardier on the road, and have him convert it to have a removable neck.
Unfortunately it wasn't ready for the tour of China and I had to deal with the trials and tribulations of a different hire bass for each venue( see a previous thread).
When I got back , Tobias contacted me to say it was ready, and I went over to Germany to pick it up:-
1/ The Bass. Acoustically its quite clean and even, but a bit new and trebly, although the bass is there too; a bit raw, volume is Ok. Bows OK, even with Spirocore Ochestral red to reds.
2/ The Removable Neck. After Tobias showed me how to put up the soundpost if it falls down, which it shouldn't because there is a removable clamp( also graphite) holding it in place, it was remarkably easy to do. After having done it a couple of times, it only takes me 10 mins to put back together( or take apart). I was surprised and delighted, as I thought it would be really tricky to get the hang of.
3/ The Pickups. I had two pickups fitted, in case one was damaged in transit I would still have the other. The first is Tobias's own Vektor pickup in the foot of the bridge. It works well, but I think is almost too good as it picks up the rawness of the bass. The second pickup, and this is where the bass really shines, is with a Fishman Full Circle, mounted in the German MPM alluminium bridge adjusters. This second pickup seems to not pickup the rawness of the new bass,seems to take more from the string, and just gives a solid, even and cut through sound which I am loving .
I have used the bass on the last three gigs:-
1/ a big band(play with them every week)- they didn't notice I had a new bass, but the trumpets actually asked me to turn down as the bass was " really carrying". This was a first as they usually ask me to turn up.
2/ a piano bass drums trio(play with them once a month) again didn't notice I had a new bass until I told them after a comment from the piano player (leader) " wow, its great tonight ,I can hear everything really clearly". We play a couple of Jazz Jamaica type Reggae numbers( eg Caravan = SKAravan), turned up the 40hz on my SWR Baby Blue, and it really kicked.
3/ a piano duo( play once a week)again (can you believe this) didn't notice I had a new bass, and I only told him as we were packing up at the end of the gig.

The only problem I've had ,is when I tried to put the FC pickup through my Avalon U5, I suddenly started picking up Asian radio. Sounds great straight into the Baby Blue though. No problem with Tobias's pickup though the U5.
The flight case, which will be made of carbon fibre, is not going to be ready until April at the earliest. I will see if I can afford it by then.
The most amazing thing to me about the bass was the price . Including both pickups,MPM adjusters ,spirocore ochestral strings--- it came to £2595.00. I think he said he would charge a bit more in future, as it had taken a bit longer to convert than one of his own basses, but he had given me that price to start with and he stuck to it , which I greatly appreciated.
It was worth the wait, and the trip to Germany.

[Jeremy Allen]

Thanks for the info. I can't help but think that the removable neck may be an idea whose time has come, at least for travel basses, and if it's a process that can be done as a retrofit that makes it all the more convenient.

My concerns with the removable neck idea are 1) how do you bring your bass bag along so that when you get where you're going, you can leave the bass assembled and schlep it around? and 2) it almost seems that the case for the disassembled bass is as inconvenient as a typical flight case (see here for some photos of one version). Please let us know what your carbon fiber case looks like when you get it, and thanks again for the report. (We love pics around here, hint hint...)

[neal davis]

compared to a normal flight case that one from mario is actually pretty easy to move and handle. That is one of Mike Downes basses a great player from canada and I've seen the case and moved it and it wasn't that bad. I've also seen people who make two different flight cases one for the bass body one for the neck to even cut down on weight even more. When ever I travel I pack a light gig bag in my carry one to cut down the weight of my flight caes so I guess you could try the same. I agree that this is one of the ways to go since here in canada you can be asked not to fly with something if it is over 70 pounds.

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Allen

it almost seems that the case for the disassembled bass is as inconvenient as a typical flight case

From reading other threads on flying with basses. I think that the main thing is that if you can get it on a plane at all with minimal hassle from staff then any other inconveniences are dwarfed. Plus if the case had wheels it would improve mobility a lot. I love wheels. I think everything should have them

[simandlhandle]

If you have a look at Tobias's web site www.tobytimber.com he has pictures of the present flight case, which is just like an oversize suitcase, where the neck and body of the bass go next to each other making it more compact. I believe it weighs 16kg. But he is not supplying them anymore, as he has designed a new one.
The day I was there , he was just sending off the die ( the shape in wood) of the new case, to the factory, from which they will make a cast , and then produce the cases from. I believe it is quite an expensive investment for him, as the cases are of carbon fibre, but they will weigh an astonishingly low 6kg.
The new case is going to be perhaps more than I can afford right now, so I might look into getting a more traditional flight case. Our sound guy just had a really light case made for his mixing desk, made out of a new material,"plastic board" or something, supposed to be twice as strong and twice as light as traditional metal covered plywood?
I'm not very knowledgable about posting pictures on here, so I apologize about that, and by the way, I have only met Tobias once, and spoken to him twice on the phone, as it might look like I am promoting his products, but I am just letting you people know what I have spent my personal hard earned on.
When I invest in a case, I will let you all know. Even if I had to hire a traditional flight case, I think the bass would be better protected being laminate back and sides, having the neck not connected and the bridge off during transit. The weight of the headstock and neck act as a fulcrum to rip the bass apart if its dropped. Getting a bang on the bridge can send the soundpost through the top or back of the bass, and with all that tension from the strings any damage caused is going to be under a lot of stress,probably making it worse.Of course there would be no saving in regards to size or weight with a traditional case.
Just before I went to China, a top classical player , Peter Bukoke, who teaches at Trinity college here in London, returned back from China after giving a masterclass there. He had taken his bass, a Dodd or Fendt, anyway £70,000.00 worth of bass, in the best flight case with fragile stickers and I am sure a lot of care and attention, to give the masterclass on. I was in the luthiers getting some adjustments done to my big old German bass, and they had the front off his bass ,making repairs to the front and back after it was damaged in transit from China.
I just thought, Yes, I've done the right thing ordering this travel bass.
I seem to remember Tobias saying that a light (not heavily padded) cover could fit over the body of the bass in transit, so that you could carry it around assembled when at your destination.

[jclagarde]

Hello,
I'm Jean-Claude Lagarde, the maker of COSI basses.
I've seen with a lot of interest what you have written in previous posts ! Even if collapsible basses are an old thing, there are some news about it !!!

For the last NAMM show I made my new bass : The 99 in. The neck is detachable, you need less than two minutes to play with the bass. Of course, my basses are very strong because they are made from carbon fibers.

When you put the bass in its case, you can easy take the plane with (i tried it myself !!) without pay anything to flight company. There is one bass to see at the Vibrato Jazz club (bel air, CA) plyed by Pat Senatore. I will have an other bass for the musikmesse frankfurt (germany)

If you want to have more informations, you can visit my web site www.cosi-lagarde.com

[Jeremy Allen]

Welcome to TalkBass, M. Lagarde! If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to read our Commercial User Policy. I'm sure you will find that your contributions to our community here are very welcome indeed, as are those of all luthiers and manufacturers.

OK, enough of the official stuff; back to the thread at hand...

Jean Claude,
Wow, I've been waiting for someone to make a cabon fibre bass with a detachable neck for travelling. I'll keep an eye on your site for updates......thanks.

[simandlhandle]

I've been using the bass on every gig since I got it up and running, and trying to take it apart and reassemble ever few days, to see how it sounds. It definitely gets more interesting as you get to understand the nuances of setup( at least more than I did). Its really given me confidence being able to put up and take down the soundpost, and slight adjustments can really make a difference to how the bass plays and sounds. The red to red spirocores do bow, but I have found when the sound post is in the best position for bowing ,it makes the bass sound too biased towards the "E" string for pizzicato, and when it has a "big" "G" string, which is how I like it for pizzicato, it makes it difficult,if not impossible, to bow. Another thing I found was that each time the neck was taken off, when the strings were put back on, having sounded great before, they would go back to being a bit twangy, at least for a couple of hours( not really unexpected).
I sent off for "Belacanto" strings from Concorde music in the USA, as they haven't been introduced here yet. I put them on today, and straight away that raw sound has gone, even new, they are dark and clear. I had to raise the bridge up quite a bit as they are a different tension, but they actually don't seem much different in gauge, and with the raising of the bridge they feel pretty similair. They sound pretty good pizzicato on this bass, although I can imagine them not suiting my other basses, and they do bow well; both without having to move the soundpost. I will see how they gig. They sound nice up the top and down at the 1/2 pos, I will see if I can dig in with them?

[neal davis]

one thing that you may want to try that mario lamare uses on his removeable neck bass is a strap around the body that you tighten that will hold the soundpost in place instead of having to set it everytime.

[simandlhandle]

Tobias Poehling supplied me with a similair, but I think better, device to hold the soundpost in place. It is two graphite strips, with shaped rubber on the side in contact with the bass ,so as not to scratch it. There are two pieces of graphite twine which connect the two pieces together and you tighten up to hold it in place. It might not be graphite twine, but its the really strong synthetic material he uses to secure the tailpiece. It is designed so as not to put pressure on the edges of the front and back, which I think a belt would; and its very strong and not going to budge or snap.
I have learned to put the soundpost back up just in case it does fall down, while tightening or slackening the strings off. It actually shoudn't fall down as the way he has shown me to do it, there is a constant pressure to hold it in place. It's just for my own peace of mind , and education, that I have learned how to do replace the soundpost. I used to find it a daunting prospect on other basses, but it is really not that difficult( I am not talking about shaping and fitting a new soundpost, which is a very skilled job).

[simandlhandle]

The Belcanto strings really suit the Shen bass. I've had the neck off a couple of times since putting them on(just showing people who were interested in how it worked) and they come back better than the Spirocores, with the same tone. I still use red to red Spirocores on my big old German bass though.
I've used the Shen bass acoustically for a couple of restaurant gigs, and for a couple of rehearsals, and it is well loud enough, but only without drummers. I've raised the action another mm or so, and am happy with the height, high enough to dig in with but low enough to still play thumb position.The strings don't react exactly the same as Spirocores,being designed as mainly a bowing string. I am not complaining of their pizz abilities, which I think is fine, I have to pull them differently; instead of half into the fingerboard ,half to the side( which is how I feel Spirocores work best ), the Belcantos need to be pulled to the side. Any into the fingerboard movement loses sound. With this bass I think it actually sounds more percussive like this, and loud.
Still haven't flown with the instrument yet, but as I haven't got the flight case yet that is probably just as well.

[tobytimber]

It has taken a long time, but I can now reveal the first pictures of the shaped case for neckless basses.
The case for the body is made from carbon fibre with a kevlar layer in between, which gives it extra resistance for sharp objects which carbon fibre isn't all that good on.
The case is flocked in off white/cream on the outside and black on the inside, there are padded blocks at the top and bottom as well as all corners. These are shaped in a way so the bass doesn't move and it only held in place by the foam block in the lid.
The case weights 7kgs without bass.
The bag for the neck is reinforced and holds the neck as well as all the bits and pieces like bridge, tailpiece and spike.

Please excuse the quality of the photos, these were taken about half an hour after the case was finished and an hour before it left for its first flight to Japan. Both case and bass have survived the trip very well.

[Tbeers]

So do you check both cases? Or do you take the neck as carry on?

This looks very interesting, and while I'm not looking for the investment of a removable neck instrument and accompanying flight cases right now, it might well be something that I would consider in the future.

[robobass]

Looks really, really cool! However, is it actually small enough to fly without extra charges?
Robobass

[tobytimber]

The bag for the neck needs to be checked in as well, it's got the spike in it and something long and heavy, airlines are a bit funny about these things these days.
robobass, yes, it is small enough for long haul flights, not sure what some small domestic airlines think about it. The rectangular case I had made before was much bigger and 25kgs heavy with bass and it's been around the world a few times on different airlines, with no extra charge whatsoever.
This case is smaller than a cello case, at least in length, and these normally are just taken on without extra charge.

[holzwurm]

Originally Posted by simandlhandle

It is two graphite strips, with shaped rubber on the side in contact with the bass ,so as not to scratch it. There are two pieces of graphite twine which connect the two pieces together and you tighten up to hold it in place. It might not be graphite twine, but its the really strong synthetic material he uses to secure the tailpiece. It is designed so as not to put pressure on the edges of the front and back, which I think a belt would; and its very strong and not going to budge or snap..

can you post a picture of this?

[jonas]

Originally Posted by tobytimber

It has taken a long time, but I can now reveal the first pictures of the shaped case for neckless basses.
The case for the body is made from carbon fibre with a kevlar layer in between, which gives it extra resistance for sharp objects which carbon fibre isn't all that good on.

Hi, Tobias!
Looks good! Has this case been custom made for you/you customer? I guess that a custom made carbon fibre case is rather expensive, isn't it?

[Andrew McGregor]

I bet the twine is Kevlar, dyed black (it's normally an ugly yellow). Carbon thread is really very fragile, Kevlar is about the toughest fiber imaginable. Kevlar thread will blunt all but the very best knives and scissors, for example, whereas carbon is about as easy to cut as hair. Kevlar is also much more flexible.

[tobytimber]

Hi Jonas, yes, it was custom made, although the shape should accomodate a number of shapes of basses. I made the mold from wood for one half of the case, a company dealing in carbon fibre products then made a tool from that mold in which they can make top and bottom of the case.
Yes , it was not cheap, but flying to Japan from Germany with a 50kgs double bass flight case can cost around 600 euros return (so I've been told). This means around six flights and the case has paid for itself.
I was told it's a carbon fibre/kevlar combination, but I'm no expert on this, I know it's strong and light and that's all that matters for me.