New vs. Vintage

Heirphoto · #1 01-28-2011, 09:30 AM

I have played around enough on acheap Chinese bass to know this is an instrument I wish to continue with. I have no aspirations to play with a band or to perform. I simply like to play for my own enjoyment and relaxation. I will be taking lessons before I develop too many bad habits but have really been enjoying what I have learned myself so far.

My question has to do with the serach for a real bass. Something reasonably well made that is worth owning and that will be nice enough to inspire me a bit.

If you had to choose between say a vintage Kay or King and a newly made Upton, which way would you go and why. I'd like to hear practical reasons as well as "feeling" as to why you may connect with one more than the other.

From a practical point, a newly made and setup Upton (or Englehardt or Shen) would be a new, sturdy instrument that is made correctly and would be ready to play. The older Kay or King, if bought from people who know what they are doing would also be setup well but may have hidden issues simply due to age....but, I typically just feel a connection with older things. They sort of have a life to them.

I'm sure there are other factors too such as what market the bass was made for. Were the older Kays just entry level school basses or better? Is the Upton Standard already a step up or the equivalent?

Thanks for any advice of thoughts anyone can share.

Tony

Matt Ides · #2 01-28-2011, 11:08 AM

Tony, I think part of it is what you want to play and find the bass that inspires you to practice and to do that. I can relate as I just sold a 50 year old Epiphone for a 8 year old carved bass, old vs. new. With all things being equal (and they pretty much were) the carved bass played a bit nicer and had the sound I was going for. Don't get me wrong, the Epiphone played great and had a huge sound, especially pizz (room shaker), but when it came to arco the Epiphone just couldn't hold it's own against the new bass.

I was just looking to upgrade to a hybrid (most likely Shen) since all of my practicing is with the bow and I am glad that I ended up with the bass I currently have.

Eric Hochberg · #3 01-28-2011, 11:27 AM

Newer quality basses are designed to today's standards for sound and playability. You could probably find an older bass, particularly German/Czech made that fit this criteria, or an old Kay that has been reworked. Yes, older basses can have problems to address... A new bass will hopefully save you some of that grief.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #4 01-28-2011, 12:18 PM

I can't speak of direct experience with the Upton, but I far prefer a well made new bass to an older one. Keep in mind though, that the needs of a working jazz/indie musician who doesn't really bow to speak of and the needs of an orchestral bassist are very different, and the choice of instrument should take this into account. For me as the former, I love the stability and consistency of newer basses. With my preference for high tension strings and setup, there have been periods weeks that have gone by where I don't even have to tune when I get to the gig because the tuning hasn't budged in the interim. (feel free to insert the obvious jokes here with my blessing, but I'm very intonation sensitive and dead serious about this)

Also, since I started playing New Standard basses about 6 years ago, I've never had to take a bass in for repair, and I play out about 100 nights a year. That kind of peace of mind is golden for me.

Eric Hochberg · #5 01-28-2011, 12:32 PM

Chris' points are well taken. My only problem with the new basses I've played under 10k, is the kind of raw, "new bass" sound they have...maybe the new strings contribute to this. I've played some new, pricey, handmade instruments that don't have this characteristic at all. Now that I think of it, the newish carved New Standard La Scala I played didn't sound particularly new...

jayscheuerle · #6 01-28-2011, 12:47 PM

Tony,

As someone with negligible experience, I was drawn to both the consistency Upton is able to provide AND the support (they also have an excellent trade-up policy). A seasoned player may fare well in the used arena, knowing what they're looking at and listening for. A very seasoned player or luthier could do VERY well in the used market. My personal concern was ending up with something that I'd need to put a lot of money into to get it sounding right because I wouldn't understand what I'm looking at.

My Upton Standard is being constructed to my specs and I'm going to head up to Connecticut in March to check it out and be shown how to fit one into my car! As someone who does some woodworking, the fact that it's being put together by specific craftsmen in a shop is very appealing to me and I'm really hoping to get a quick peak at where they're working on the instruments. I'm looking forward to meeting the people on the other end of the phones/emails so if I ever do have problems or questions, I'm talking to someone whose hand I've shaken. That can make a big difference when it comes to having things taken care of, though in truth, I expect no problems or surprises whatsoever. - j

drurb · #7 01-28-2011, 01:11 PM

IMO, it's the sound that rules. Some people prefer to own "vintage" for the sake of owning something older. That's fine if that's what they enjoy. That reason aside, IMO, the reason to choose an older bass is if it provides a sound that speaks so well to you that it outweighs the potential maintenance issues of an older instrument. That's more likely to happen in the upper price ranges.

The practical advantages of new instruments have already been discussed here very well by Chris. In the price range the OP seems to be targeting, I really don't think there's much of an issue with new ply basses sounding too new, as compared to, say, older ply basses. Actually, if one chooses well, that need not be an issue with more expensive basses either. I've played more than one new under $10k bass that did not sound "raw" at all.

Heirphoto · #8 01-28-2011, 01:14 PM

Jay (and others),
Thanks for sharing. Part of the appeal of the Upton is dealing with a small shop and how they work. Of course the Kays that have interested me come from Fretwell and Bass Monkey and you have a similar relationship between the luthiers who will set them up and the instrument. I just like the feedback i have had in dealing with all three firms/individuals.

I should have given more info I guess. I will be playing mostly pizz and really wanting to learn arco too. If I could eventually be able to learn Bach's Cello Suite No. 1 Prelude on the DB I'd be thrilled to death. Other than that I'll stick with pizz.
With the variable climate here in Baltimore and in my home I am sticking with a laminated bass and am trying to keep this at no more than 3k. I know that limits me in many areas but it is the most practical choice.

Tony

JtheJazzMan · #9 01-28-2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Chris' points are well taken. My only problem with the new basses I've played under 10k, is the kind of raw, "new bass" sound they have...maybe the new strings contribute to this. I've played some new, pricey, handmade instruments that don't have this characteristic at all. Now that I think of it, the newish carved New Standard La Scala I played didn't sound particularly new...

If youve got the cash then my bet would also be on giving my money to a still-living luthier to create a master-crafted instrument.

Eric Hochberg · #10 01-28-2011, 01:28 PM

If you are going to be serious about the bow as it sounds like you are, consider a hybrid at the least. Don't worry about weather, you'll make it work out as we all do.

drurb · #11 01-28-2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

If you are going to be serious about the bow as it sounds like you are, consider a hybrid at the least. Don't worry about weather, you'll make it work out as we all do.

+1, and a carved top is, IMO, highly preferable for pizz. as well.

John_Madere · #12 01-28-2011, 02:31 PM

I recently acquired an old Czech bass. I'm not sure how old it is exactly but I know it's pre-world war 2. My main bass is Romanian and was built in 2004. The Romanian bass can't even come close to the Czech bass.

The Czech bass is much older though and already had a bunch of cracks and some of the seams are coming loose. I'm willing to deal with the issues of it though because it has the sound I've been looking for for ten years. I think that should be the ultimate decision maker. Don't get something because it's 200 years old but sounds like crap. It's all about the sound, baby!

DrBassie · #13 01-31-2011, 06:52 PM

I was in the market for a bass a year or two ago. I originally was going to go the vintage route because of the sound. After playing quite a few basses, I went for a new flatback because A) in my price range, there wasn't any vintage basses that grabbed my ear -would've had to go $4k over- and B) I played lower priced instruments from the maker I eventually bought from that sounded equal or better than vintage ones, at least to my ear.

There was one vintage one I liked in my price range but it was definitely a well-worn bass that would've needed a lot of TLC. I don't neglect my basses but luthiers in my area are few and far between, so I decided a new one would ease my mind. Haven't looked back really.

Bijoux · #14 02-03-2011, 08:56 PM

this might be relevant to the thread.
http://www.economist.com/node/151086...ry_id=15108669