Not the Arrow

[Scott Moncrieff]

Another “not the arrow but the Indian” story

I have spent quite a bit of lunch hour time lately window-shopping all the old posts about every which kind of EUB and DB. I’ve Googled the driving distance between my house and all the relevant houses of bass, checked a couple of airfares, thought about all the instruments I could try at Oklahoma City at ISB in June 2007. I’ve imagined myself with the new La Scala/Hybrid Hawkes/Shen/Wan Bernadel/Christopher etc., imagined my band mates complimenting me on my new axe, the whole nine yards.

A quick look at my bank balance would identify this activity as premature, but there is a reason for it. I go to bass fantasy land because one, I can’t practice at the office (although if I had an EUB I might get in 20 minutes at lunch . . .), and two, I can’t/don’t practice enough when I get home, and three, everyone has a talent ceiling. So the easiest way to imagine myself playing better is to imagine myself with a new instrument.

Unfortunately, even a new La Scala won’t play “Cherokee” at 270 for me or learn the changes to the tunes on my next gig; were I to inherit the means to get a great instrument I’d still be stuck with my technique. Reminds me of a golf lesson I had when a teenager. I’m tall, and I asked the pro if he thought I needed extra long clubs. This guy was a local long driving legend, and close to my height. “Lemme see that club,” he said, taking away my 7 iron. Then he bent over at the waist until his hands were about two feet off the ground and whacked three beautiful shots down the range. “Yeah, you could use long clubs,” he said, “but don’t ever use that as an excuse for a bad swing.”

Yeah, I hope to upgrade my instrument some day, but meanwhile there’s some definite room for growth on the pretty decent instrument I have. Time to close the window and go to the woodshed.

Scott

[bassist14]

Originally Posted by Scott Moncrieff

Another “not the arrow but the Indian” story

I have spent quite a bit of lunch hour time lately window-shopping all the old posts about every which kind of EUB and DB. I’ve Googled the driving distance between my house and all the relevant houses of bass, checked a couple of airfares, thought about all the instruments I could try at Oklahoma City at ISB in June 2007. I’ve imagined myself with the new La Scala/Hybrid Hawkes/Shen/Wan Bernadel/Christopher etc., imagined my band mates complimenting me on my new axe, the whole nine yards.

A quick look at my bank balance would identify this activity as premature, but there is a reason for it. I go to bass fantasy land because one, I can’t practice at the office (although if I had an EUB I might get in 20 minutes at lunch . . .), and two, I can’t/don’t practice enough when I get home, and three, everyone has a talent ceiling. So the easiest way to imagine myself playing better is to imagine myself with a new instrument.

Unfortunately, even a new La Scala won’t play “Cherokee” at 270 for me or learn the changes to the tunes on my next gig; were I to inherit the means to get a great instrument I’d still be stuck with my technique. Reminds me of a golf lesson I had when a teenager. I’m tall, and I asked the pro if he thought I needed extra long clubs. This guy was a local long driving legend, and close to my height. “Lemme see that club,” he said, taking away my 7 iron. Then he bent over at the waist until his hands were about two feet off the ground and whacked three beautiful shots down the range. “Yeah, you could use long clubs,” he said, “but don’t ever use that as an excuse for a bad swing.”

Yeah, I hope to upgrade my instrument some day, but meanwhile there’s some definite room for growth on the pretty decent instrument I have. Time to close the window and go to the woodshed.

Scott

Thank you, scott!

[Mike Goodbar]

Yeah, it's the sad truth. I'd love to drop $10K or $15 on a (relatively) nice instrument, but mortgage, car payments, college-bound kids, etc. all shake their head disapprovingly. And that bass isn't going make me Dave Holland or Edgar Meyer, especially with the approximately .5 hours of practice I get in per week, except when my kids need to be at lessons, rehearsals, basketball practice, scouts, or when my wife feels I'm spending more time holding my bass than her.

I have a pretty decent Chinese hybrid, but the grass is always greener, right? One night Gerald Cannon comes into a gig I was playing and sits in and proceeds to get twice as much sound out of it than I ever thought the bass had in it. When I get as much sound out of my bass as Gerald did and then feel I need to get more, THEN I'll raid the kid's college fund.

[John Sprague]

We all get caught up in this with various pursuits, but you're absolutely correct. It's the singer, not the song. I wonder how much practice time I've wasted looking at gear in magazines and web and so on.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

HOWEVER,,,,,
I've begun to learn the head to Ornithology for the last few months.
After I got got the new Hawkes, I learned it in about 15 minutes.
A good bass that plays well and sounds the way we want it to sound makes practicing a lot more fun.

[Silversorcerer]

This is one of the best posts I've ever read. I guess what is expressed is so obvious that we tend to miss it.

On the other hand, a really nice bass could be afforded by most of us if we could cut out some of the other big fat items in our lives, or even reduce just a few small and expensive habits. Take that Fourbucks coffee for instance. Or the retail CD store. Or the printed hard copies of documents that wouldn't fade on the screen. The new computer every year or two. You can get to that LaScala pretty quick.

That's what I'm concentrating on now. Mid life reduction. How much of this consumerist lifestyle can I trade for better gear? Is there really a big difference between name brand denim and just denim? Is a $5 haircut necessary 10 times a year or could I get away with a pony tail? Is a ten year old Volvo less transportation than a new one?

Oh well, if I can't get in some bow time every day, what's the point? Which begs another question. What the f__ am I doing with my life? In the end, you must earn your rehearsal time, and the price could be as small as unplugging your TV and shutting down the DSL.

I realized I was reading the paper for about two hours a day. So I canceled the subscription. No news is good news. Let me know if anything significant happens.

[Sippy]

I agree with mostly everything said on the post. except for learning the head to a tune in 15 minutes on one bass and not the other. Unless the bass is in some serious nonworking order. There is no way that is possible. A better bass is not going to enhance your learning skills.
My fiance is a writer and they have this period every year (this is actually the time) I forget what it's called but they basically unplug their TVs, Radios, etc. and write. and they all have a goal to meet. The average is something like 300 pages. Well she's doing that. and I decided to try it myself. I watch 1 hour of Law and Order every night. Besides work and Law and Order I have alloted 5 hours of practice time a day. And feel a lot better about myself. Granted, my bass is not setup as well as it should be (the lack of a luthier is the cause) but a $10k bass isn't going to make those hours more productive... maybe more enjoyable!

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Sippy

I agree with mostly everything said on the post. except for learning the head to a tune in 15 minutes on one bass and not the other. .................................................. ........... but a $10k bass isn't going to make those hours more productive... maybe more enjoyable!

My BSO is set up very well and is easy to play ,as I remember . My point is this: My new bass just sounds so good that I love playing it. A better bass is easier to get the sound out of. It's more responsive. There is a lot more to playability than FB dressing and string height.

[Mike Goodbar]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

On the other hand, a really nice bass could be afforded by most of us if we could cut out some of the other big fat items in our lives, or even reduce just a few small and expensive habits. Take that Fourbucks coffee for instance.

Let's not get carried away here...

[Sippy]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodbar

Let's not get carried away here...

another .02 from me .... He's right. I was spending $70 a week on starbucks (Not an exageration...It's sad)... I brought it down to $15. and have so far saved $400 towards a new Shen or Engelhardt.

[jdapodaca]

Originally Posted by Sippy

another .02 from me .... He's right. I was spending $70 a week on starbucks (Not an exageration...It's sad)... I brought it down to $15. and have so far saved $400 towards a new Shen or Engelhardt.

its funny how people always attack four dollar coffee.

why don't people attack hundred dollar cell phone bills or internet service?

[Sippy]

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

its funny how people always attack four dollar coffee.

why don't people attack hundred dollar cell phone bills or internet service?

Because you pay $100 per month for it and use it every day. If you had one $4 coffee every day you'd pay $124 a month... hmmmm $100 for phone/DSL or $124 for coffee... Yea... I suck

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

its funny how people always attack four dollar coffee.

why don't people attack hundred dollar cell phone bills or internet service?

Because if you don't get all wired on the caffeine you won't chatter so much on the cell! As far as internet service goes, I get mine for $89 a year, unlimited dial-up. When I'm on DSL, it's only when I'm hanging at the Five Spot, which has wireless that I can get onto while I'm digging the local jazzers. So when you see me on the forum for like 4 hrs. in the evening, you know what I'm checking out. Jake Sharp, Adams Township, Trey Wright, The Lonliest Monks, etc. Groove to the web, baby!

$70 / week on Fourbucks???? I was kind of kidding, but that is like a serious crack habit there. I was doing something similar at Aurora. I gave it up. Health issues more than $$, but it was a good move both ways.

Anyways, I totally disagree with Sippy on the good instrument / learning curve issue. A better instrument will open some doors for you that you didn't even realize were there. On the EBG side, I used a Fender P for 31 years. You'd think I would have mastered every chop I was capable of in that time. Nada. I have two Jens Ritter Royas now and it has made a difference in my playing that I would have never imagined possible. The same is true with my DB experience. I had a cheapo plywood bass that really wasn't too bad;- I thought, until I got my Bulgarian carved bass and now I realize that I really was wasting my rehearsal time on the first bass.

It is true of both my carved DB and my Ritter fretless 5 that these instruments just sing out like you can't imagine when the notes are on pitch. This is finally what a good instrument is all about. There are no dead spots or bad notes. It frees your fingers to just find the voice you hear in your head. And when you can hear that difference that well, it makes a difference in how well you play and how fast you learn. Of course as the price goes up beyond a certain point, the differences become less dramatic and some are just cosmetic. I have a ways to go on a great DB, but the Kremona is well on the way and totally sufficient for my current needs, and with the Ritters, well, those are, IMO, the pentultimate in bass guitars. Every one that I play with totally agrees that I am a far better player since I upgraded to the Ritters. And my Fender P is a totally sweet bass, but it was eventually a limiting factor in developing advanced skills. And it is not like you think, I only play the Ritters when I rehearse or perform with the bands I use it with. All of my woodshed time is on the DB, but my EBG skills are improving as well.

[Sippy]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Because if you don't get all wired on the caffeine you won't chatter so much on the cell! As far as internet service goes, I get mine for $89 a year, unlimited dial-up. When I'm on DSL, it's only when I'm hanging at the Five Spot, which has wireless that I can get onto while I'm digging the local jazzers. So when you see me on the forum for like 4 hrs. in the evening, you know what I'm checking out. Jake Sharp, Adams Township, Trey Wright, The Lonliest Monks, etc. Groove to the web, baby!

$70 / week on Fourbucks???? I was kind of kidding, but that is like a serious crack habit there. I was doing something similar at Aurora. I gave it up. Health issues more than $$, but it was a good move both ways.

Anyways, I totally disagree with Sippy on the good instrument / learning curve issue. A better instrument will open some doors for you that you didn't even realize were there. On the EBG side, I used a Fender P for 31 years. You'd think I would have mastered every chop I was capable of in that time. Nada. I have two Jens Ritter Royas now and it has made a difference in my playing that I would have never imagined possible. The same is true with my DB experience. I had a cheapo plywood bass that really wasn't too bad;- I thought, until I got my Bulgarian carved bass and now I realize that I really was wasting my rehearsal time on the first bass.

It is true of both my carved DB and my Ritter fretless 5 that these instruments just sing out like you can't imagine when the notes are on pitch. This is finally what a good instrument is all about. There are no dead spots or bad notes. It frees your fingers to just find the voice you hear in your head. And when you can hear that difference that well, it makes a difference in how well you play and how fast you learn. Of course as the price goes up beyond a certain point, the differences become less dramatic and some are just cosmetic. I have a ways to go on a great DB, but the Kremona is well on the way and totally sufficient for my current needs, and with the Ritters, well, those are, IMO, the pentultimate in bass guitars. Every one that I play with totally agrees that I am a far better player since I upgraded to the Ritters. And my Fender P is a totally sweet bass, but it was eventually a limiting factor in developing advanced skills. And it is not like you think, I only play the Ritters when I rehearse or perform with the bands I use it with. All of my woodshed time is on the DB, but my EBG skills are improving as well.

I guess we can agree to disagree. Because I can't see a better instrument making your learning skills improve. It may make your practice time more enjoyable, therefore you practice more... but that's it. Think about this, back when they were playing... Jimi Hendrix and Jaco used "cheap" instruments for their day... I think they did pretty well. Now saying that if Jaco didn't have his Jazz bass and he had a Ritter of Fodera... he would have been better then he was. I don't believe that. It's the Gunner not the Gun. If I started with a Ritter bass. And You gave Jaco a squire, and we both started at the same time, practice the same ammount of time... there is NO way in hell I'd be anywhere near as good as he is. Good equipment "amplifies" good technique and skill. It doesn't make good technique and skill.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by Sippy

I guess we can agree to disagree. Because I can't see a better instrument making your learning skills improve. It may make your practice time more enjoyable, therefore you practice more... but that's it. Think about this, back when they were playing... Jimi Hendrix and Jaco used "cheap" instruments for their day... I think they did pretty well. Now saying that if Jaco didn't have his Jazz bass and he had a Ritter of Fodera... he would have been better then he was. I don't believe that. It's the Gunner not the Gun. If I started with a Ritter bass. And You gave Jaco a squire, and we both started at the same time, practice the same ammount of time... there is NO way in hell I'd be anywhere near as good as he is. Good equipment "amplifies" good technique and skill. It doesn't make good technique and skill.

Before I got the Ritters, I would have been inclined to agree with you whole heartedly. And I will preface what I have to say with this: You and I both know the value in the playability of a '73 Fender P. So we can compare apples to apples, also this is just a discussion, not an argument, so consider what I say as opinion and not adversarial. Do you really think you would be as good a player with a '73 Univox or Silvertone? Those were the "cheap" basses in Jaco and Hendrix's day. I know because I bought my P in 1975. The cheap playable bass is a direct result of the technology available now (as you point out in another thread). There were no "cheap" playable instruments in 1975. If you wanted accurate intonation at the frets, you had a Fender, a Gibson, an Ampeg, Gretsch, Guild, or Rickenbacker. Aria and Haegstrom made some OK quality basses. In 1975 wage dollars, all of those were more expensive than the modern counterparts are now.

When Jaco played a Jazz, it was one of the best there was available, perhaps second to a Rickenbacker. It was not a "cheap" instrument then;- I think Ken Smith was using a pretty fancy Jazz back then (nor is an American Fender Jazz a cheap instrument now). Neither was a Fender Stratocaster by Hendrix's time. There were no Foderas, Ritters, Ken Smiths, Pedullas, Zons, Modulus, etc., at that time. And Jaco didn't leave his Jazz alone. He planed the fret board into a fingerboard, so it wasn't a stock Jazz. Also, Jaco was an exceptional genius on that instrument, so the general case of you and me with stock '73 P's is not truly relevant. The relevant question is (and the answer is just speculation because history is exactly that): would Jaco had been even better if he had a fretless Ritter, Fodera, or Smith instead of a customized Jazz?

I agree with you and perhaps disagree with you this way. There is no bass that would make you or me into a Jaco, nor is there a DB that will make either of us into Edgar Meyer. But there probably are basses now that weren't available to Jaco that would have made him even better. From what the fellow that sold Edgar his DB told me, that Gabrielli (?) is not such a hot DB either.

As far as the practice thing goes, re-read my post. I spent at least 2 hrs. a day on my P for about 6 years and practiced weekly with it for the next 25. There was a limit to where I could take it after that. I spend about 6 hrs. a week with the Ritters now, in two rehearsal blocks a few days apart and then a couple of gigs per month. That is exactly the same schedule that I had on the P up until I bought the Ritters. These stay in the cases at home. My amp is left at the rehearsal space, so no, I don't take the Ritters out daily to fawn over them. It is unquestionable that I am getting better after switching, even having to get used to the 5th string, no frets and the 35" scale. Sure it helps that I am daily woodshedding away on my Kremona DB, but it is an entirely different set of strings. What both of these have in common is a "sound" thing that my P and my old ply DB did not have. You can not learn fine shades of articulation if the instrument doesn't respond to them. It's like trying to imagine colors on a B&W photo. Imagining is as far as it goes.

If it pleases you, take some of that Fourbucks money you are saving and put it into your choice of better bass or double bass. You won't be Jaco or Edgar, but if your current gear is holding you back, the switch will tell the tale.

And it's great to find someone else playing a Fender P '73. I still pull mine out for "Satisfy Susie" and "Good Mornin' Little School Girl". The Ritters are just too "new era bass" sounding for those tunes, to my ear anyway.