Old Wives Tale.....

Paul Warburton · #1 09-26-2006, 11:12 PM

Do you think this is true or an old wives tale: Basses that are loud acoutically don't sound good with a PU and amp?
Or: Basses that sound like crap when amped, usually sound really good without an amp.

**Jeremy Allen** · #2 09-26-2006, 11:31 PM

Let's ask Palombi what his experience has been; he told a story on here once about being asked to turn DOWN when he was playing with the Vanguard band, and he wasn't even using an amp...

I have found that less-than-resonant plywood basses and EUBs are easy to amplify well, perhaps much like a Les Paul is better suited to heavy amplification than an L5. But I can't say if that means the inverse (converse?) is true; my new (old) bass isn't necessarily super loud, but the sound is completely full and rounded and even in all registers and on all notes, and it pretty well sounds perfect amplified. I think the evenness has a lot to do with it.

Silversorcerer · #3 09-27-2006, 12:23 AM

Well, I'm not sure about that relationship. The one I run into is the one where better sounding / more resonant bass feeds back when amplified before tubby sounding / less resonant bass. The good sounding bass sounds better with everything, I just can't crank it up as much using the same PU, amp, etc.

Ed Fuqua · #4 09-29-2006, 12:00 PM

I dunno PW, I think my bass sounds purty good through an amp or just by itself.

bribass · #5 09-30-2006, 09:42 AM

Well, my Prescott does sound great thru the amp. Better than my German bass or Juzek ply. However the Prescott (the loudest acoustically) will feedback at high volumes before the other two. I think this is because its top vibrates more than the other basses and when there is high SPL's from a bass speaker or stage monitors nearby it's just gonna react to those vibrations more and create a feedback loop that much easier.

Bob Branstetter · #6 09-30-2006, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Do you think this is true or an old wives tale: Basses that are loud acoutically don't sound good with a PU and amp?
Or: Basses that sound like crap when amped, usually sound really good without an amp.

On the first part, I'm with Bribass, but the second part is definately an old wives tale. Some basses just sound bad acoustically and bad but louder (bad) with a pickup.

Since you posed the question, what's your opinion Paul?

Uncletoad · #7 09-30-2006, 11:36 AM

Brian is right about that.

Volume and tone are separate considerations.

I think that louder acoustic instruments tend to be harder to amplify to louder volumes than softer acoustic instruments. The resonance that is required for loud acoustic sound becomes a liability at high electric volumes. All kinds of waveform conflicts arise between the air from the speaker and its effect on the top. So in general louder acoustic instruments can't play as loud plugged in as softer acoustic instruments.

That doesn't mean that cheap or bad sounding instruments will sound good plugged in. Garbage in Garbage out applies here. If your bass sounds like a 2x4 with strings on it then it will just be a really loud 2x4 with strings through an amp. If your bass sounds fantastic acoustically it will sound fantastic plugged in (assuming good gear etc.).

You may not get all that fabulousness at ear splitting wall shaking volumes due to the sensitivity of the top but why would you want to? At that point all the nature of the wood is gone and you may as well play a Fender. That's why they were made in the first place.

So I always tell people to buy the best acoustic sounding instrument they can afford and then figure out how to amplify it if need be later.

Paul Warburton · #8 10-01-2006, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Since you posed the question, what's your opinion Paul?

You nailed me BB...No, I didn't just ask this question for fun.
My Bohmann isn't the loudest bass in creation. The things I love about it are that it's got a wonderful personality of sound. Ever hear that one before? Also, it's the most even DB i've EVER heard. Including the low B string. That bass sounds like ONE long srting! It's also the best bass i've ever heard amped. BB will vouch for that....However loud it's not, acoustically. Don't get me wrong, it still sounds great, just not as loud as some basses.
I've run into other basses like this, so I thought i'd ask my boys.

mchildree · #9 10-01-2006, 05:28 AM

I'm really happy to see that somebody agrees with me that quality of tone and even response are more valuable assets for a bass than just simple acoustic loudness. My experience is fairly limited to the 4 or 5 basses I've owned, but it sure seems to me that a bass that has a nice, even response and good basic tone, it'll amplify well. The really loud basses (acoustically) seem to have the amplification problems. Considering the ratio of amp gigs to pure acoustic gigs I get, raw acoustic volume gets the lower priority. My NS bass strikes a very nice balance at a great price, IMO.

I've had some pretty interesting experiences trying to discuss this with other players at bluegrass festivals. Their eyes just glaze over until the topic comes back around to "loud".

Paul Warburton · #10 10-01-2006, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mchildree

I'm really happy to see that somebody agrees with me that quality of tone and even response are more valuable assets for a bass than just simple acoustic loudness. My experience is fairly limited to the 4 or 5 basses I've owned, but it sure seems to me that a bass that has a nice, even response and good basic tone, it'll amplify well. The really loud basses (acoustically) seem to have the amplification problems. Considering the ratio of amp gigs to pure acoustic gigs I get, raw acoustic volume gets the lower priority. My NS bass strikes a very nice balance at a great price, IMO.

I've had some pretty interesting experiences trying to discuss this with other players at bluegrass festivals. Their eyes just glaze over until the topic comes back around to "loud".

Yeah Mike, it's nice to know you understand what i'm talking about, as well. Not that you other cats don't.

Paul Warburton · #11 10-01-2006, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I dunno PW, I think my bass sounds purty good through an amp or just by itself.

That's great man! I don't think I could ever go amp-less with the Bohmann. If you can go amp-less in NY, that says a whole lot about your bass and more importantly, your playing!

Ed Fuqua · #12 10-02-2006, 12:42 PM

I had a REALLY horrible experience this weekend, playing on a Hudson River cruise boat. The area they have you set up is apparently over the engine room, so throughout the whole gig there is this horrible bass rumble that just wipes ANY frequency form my instrument out. I knew I couldn't do the gig with the No Amp, so I bought my rig. But ended up dialing out ALL the bass and adding a bunch of treble and hi mid, my bass ended up sounding like a Fender.

And that's a good reason for drinking...

musicman5string · #13 10-02-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

And that's a good reason for drinking...

Who needs a "good" reason?

fingers · #14 10-02-2006, 02:44 PM

Bassphil · #15 05-11-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Allen

Let's ask Palombi what his experience has been; he told a story on here once about being asked to turn DOWN when he was playing with the Vanguard band, and he wasn't even using an amp...

Ha! That's funny that you posted that! Actually, the Village Vanguard is a very special stage- it's the best bass stage I've ever played on. I never use an amp there- just my AMT microphone, which on that night I had pulled all the way away from my bass so I wasn't too loud on stage. I guess it was one of those magical nights where my bass really opened up...

Anyway, to chime in on the subject, I've always had a problem amplifying that bass. I was confused- it's a great sounding bass, but it always sounds bad if I have to turn the pickup up.

Back in '05, I presented this conundrum to Ray Brown, who had the answer. The first thing he said was "I gave up playing cannons like this back in the '40's!" For those of you who don't know my bass, it's a full size JB Allen that weighs half a ton. My acupuncturists tells me to recommend smaller basses to my students

Anyway, the second thing he said was "instruments that really vibrate overload the piezo style pickups, while instruments that don't vibrate tend to get a better sound with pickups".

I don't think this has anything to do with the actual sound quality, just the physics of the instrument. In '95 I was using a Fishman pickup. As an experiment, I cut out two pieces of a dish towel and placed them between the two little metal paddles of the Fishman pickup to soak up some vibration. The sound was noticeably better! I later went back to the Underwood with some wood splints inserted, then finally arrived at the Gage pickup (without alterations) with is the best so far.

However, after that experience with Ray in '95, I started using an EV RE20 microphone as the main signal, with a little pickup mixed in. I've finally ditched the RE in favor of the AMT bass mic, which is the best out there as far as I'm concerned.

Great thread, by the way. I wish TalkBass (and the internet, for that matter) was around when I was in college!

-Phil

Ike Harris · #16 05-11-2007, 12:21 PM

Thanks, Phil, for resurrecting this thread. Nice to see a post from Paul as well, albeit from long ago. I have similar thoughts on the idea of amplification working well with a quieter bass. My 7/8 Kolstein is a good compromise of a bass that has good acoustic volume with great tone but still can amplify at a decent level, but my 1950 Am. Standard, which is not one of the louder ones acoustically and has a different but good tone, can amplify nice and loud for those big venue concerts that I need it for. A previous bass of mine, a 200 year-old small 3/4 German, wasn't loud at all acoustically but had such a rich tone that I still miss. It would play as loud as I ever wanted through an amp. So, with those few examples of basses that I've lived with for a good while, I have to go with the idea that a good sounding quiet bass is the best amplified one with a pickup, but a mic would probably be best for a "cannon". I think a guitar analogy would be(if you know guitars)that a Gibson 335 amplifies better because of it being a "semi-hollowbody" than one that is a full hollowbody. I may be full of it, but that's the way I think of it.

Ike