Are older Kays better?

[Thumpie]

I've heard that early Kays sound a lot better than the ones made after the mid '50s. (My luthier told me my '47 C-1 sounds like a carved bass, but I take this with a grain of salt because maybe he compliments all his client's basses.)

Some think the older ones sound better because they started overbuilding them to stand the pressure that newly developed steel strings were putting on the tops.

Also, I've read that at some point, they stopped using hide glue, which is superior to the newer stiffer glues. Hide glue is more pliable and allows the bass to resonate better.

All this I've either read or been told...any opinions to support or contradict?

[fdeck]

When did they switch away from hide glue? I'm curious because my Kay is a 1961.

[james condino]

The tone on old Kays is subjective for all the years they were made. From the standpoint of someone who works on them almost every day, I prefer the late 1930s and 1940s models for a simple reason. Most of those had maple plys for the inside layers of the top, back, and ribs. In the early 1950s, they switched to a poplar ply for the inside layer. When you take one apart for repair / restoration work, the poplar pretty much falls apart and you wind up with quite a mess of splinters and sections to put back together, no matter what method you use or how careful you are. On the earlier ones with the maple inside plys, they come apart very easy with not much extra work or separation. I also see the bassbars coming loose on a lot higher percentage of 1950s models due to the poplar layer ripping apart from the other layers. Even with the increased tension from steel strings, if a bassbar comes loose on an earlier one, it is the bar that comes loose not the ply layers failing.

I would NOT say that hide glue is more pliable than the more modern materials; more like the opposite. When it hardens it is very brittle.
As with everything, expect the next ten responses to give you fifteen different opinions...

There is a nice workshop on vintage Kay restorations coming up this summer in Tacoma. PM me for the details...

j.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by james condino

I would NOT say that hide glue is more pliable than the more modern materials; more like the opposite. When it hardens it is very brittle.

j.

This is absolutely true. Hide glue dries hard and stiff, unlike modern PVA-based glues which remain a bit gummy throughout their life span. This hardness is one of the things that endears hide glue to instrument makers. It is tonally invisible, as it does not cause damping. However, when used to laminate things (like a bass top/back), it has a tendency to fracture over time, causing delaminations and plate sinkage. I personally think the earlier Kays sound different because the plates are thinner.

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

This is absolutely true. Hide glue dries hard and stiff, unlike modern PVA-based glues which remain a bit gummy throughout their life span. This hardness is one of the things that endears hide glue to instrument makers. It is tonally invisible, as it does not cause damping. However, when used to laminate things (like a bass top/back), it has a tendency to fracture over time, causing delaminations and plate sinkage. I personally think the earlier Kays sound different because the plates are thinner.

Ah, so I got it completely wrong. This makes sense if you think about. Does anybody know when Kay stopped using hide glue?

[dhsierra1]

have you seen this website? The "proprietor" seems pretty knowledgeable and might be able to help. He was very helpful when I was restoring a '49 "Chubby Jackson" model a few years back.

Kay Bass Information and Registration

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by dhsierra1

have you seen this website? The "proprietor" seems pretty knowledgeable and might be able to help. He was very helpful when I was restoring a '49 "Chubby Jackson" model a few years back.

Kay Bass Information and Registration

The site says "[it] appears hide glue was used at least from 1937 until 1952."

[MollyKay]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I personally think the earlier Kays sound different because the plates are thinner.

Agreed. Not only are the plates thinner, but many of the pre-war Kay’s have a three ply top. Later models have five ply tops. Thinner, three ply tops in my opinion are light, loud and quick to respond. One of my favorite Kay’s is my 1937 Kay M-4. This bass definitely has the three ply top and is a sweetie to play. It sounds round and full with Spiro weich's and the engraved flower tuners is a “girlie thing”.

In my collection of Kay’s I have focused pretty heavy on the pre-war models for the very reasons you state…I think they sound better, more authentic for that 1940’s vibe.

[cjac9]

Anyone know what year they switched to 5-ply tops?

[sean p]

i've got a 1940 c-1 that's got a 5-ply top.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by Thumpie

Ah, so I got it completely wrong. This makes sense if you think about. Does anybody know when Kay stopped using hide glue?

Well, CF Martin started using white glue in 1964 but they still used hide glue for gluing tops and backs until the mid-seventies. I don't imagine that Kay would have been very different.

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I heard '52. Mine is an early '51 and, when fixing some fairly serious edge delamination, I saw no evidence of white glue. The hide glue I used stuck the plys back together, so I guess that counts as confirmation.