Palatino experience today

[Waltjie]

I had a lesson with my teacher today to prepare for an upcoming performance (which will be my first!!), and we had our lesson at the school at which he teaches. They have a couple of Palatino basses, and I used this for my lesson, since I didn't feel like lugging mine all the way there... I must say that, other than the fact that the fingerboard had been stripped of the black paint quite badly - it is a school bass afterall - the bass really wasn't bad at all... quite easy to play, nice sound... So I say "why the hell not"...

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Waltjie

So I say "why the hell not"...

Let me count the ways.

[Rebop]

I got a Palatino VB-009 (real ebony board ) just to stand on, beat up and yell at for the rockabilly stuff I do. It was pierced with a forklift somewhere between China and my distributor; they patched it and it's a fair bass for the $400 I paid. There is no other reason to consider a Palatino IMHO. I don't bring that one out to any of the jazz or R&B gigs.

[Damon Rondeau]

Sooner or later a very high percentage of these ultra-cheap instruments will self-destruct. Necks come off. Top plates come off. Stuff like that. In my opinion, that tendency to catastrophic failure undermines the argument that they make good, serviceable utility beater basses. They are frail and unreliable.

[Rebop]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

In my opinion, that tendency to catastrophic failure undermines the argument that they make good, serviceable utility beater basses. They are frail and unreliable.

It's actually pretty tough. It doesn't have the "squishy" ribs like a lot of other CCB's do (e.g. Carlo Robellis and Primas, some of them you can push in on the sides gently and they will deflect a bit). I stand on it during shows and the guitar player stands on it for a solo or two. I've worked on a ton of late 19th century German basses that were way more "frail".
At the show I played a few weeks ago. The guitar player and I were taking turns lying down on the bass while on its side and getting pushed across the freshly polished dance floor. I even crashed into the wall and a mic stand a few times. It was so funny; couldn't stop laughing at the CCB sliding across the room with a guy lying down on it like some sort of retarded magic carpet bass.

When I played fairly decent sized show recently (500+ people) and shared the bill with some bigger names, it's the only bass I brought with me and it was a couple hundred miles from home.

[Steve Swan]

I'd like to see some youtube videos of some of these moves. It's perversely fascinating to players like me who are so anal about never letting it lie on the floor, etc.

[Rebop]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

I'd like to see some youtube videos of some of these moves. It's perversely fascinating to players like me who are so anal about never letting it lie on the floor, etc.

I pushed it across a wooden stage once and it caught a nail head that was sticking up. The bass stopped real fast.
I'll see if any of my stunts have been uploaded on youtube, in the mean time, this is Joe Fick doing the bass slide move I tried when it got hung up on a nail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWd5d7dvIE4

[E.P. Miller]

Originally Posted by Rebop

...CCB sliding across the room with a guy lying down on it like some sort of retarded magic carpet bass.

That's hilarious. As much as I detest cheap imports of any kind, double basses included, at least you have discovered another fine use for these basses besides firewood.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by Rebop

At the show I played a few weeks ago. The guitar player and I were taking turns lying down on the bass while on its side and getting pushed across the freshly polished dance floor. I even crashed into the wall and a mic stand a few times. It was so funny; couldn't stop laughing at the CCB sliding across the room with a guy lying down on it like some sort of retarded magic carpet bass.

Well, there's variation in everything and one bad apple certainly doesn't tell the whole story -- neither does one good one.

I wound up selling a cheap-*ss Cremona to a rockabilly guy -- a good friend, yet -- who slapped it to pieces on a regular basis. I'm not stretching the truth, either. He slapped it to pieces on a regular basis. My karma was having to fix the damn thing every other week. Stand on it? Totally forget about it -- you'd be better off standing on a Kleenex box.

[fingerbun]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Sooner or later a very high percentage of these ultra-cheap instruments will self-destruct. Necks come off. Top plates come off. Stuff like that. In my opinion, that tendency to catastrophic failure undermines the argument that they make good, serviceable utility beater basses. They are frail and unreliable.

I use a Chinese ply for pubs and clubs, and keep my carved bass aside for orchestra.

Broke the heck once when it was dropped. Clean break, simple repair. A small ding on the body where the neck hit it when it broke.

On the carved bass the same drop would still likely have broken the neck, but a much more expensive repair on a good instrument. Also the ding on the body might have been a split on the front had it been a carved bass. More repairs.

Avoiding that damage to the good bass just once paid for the ply instrument and then some.

That aside no reliability issues. But I bought carefully and paid to have some arts of the bass upgraded for durability and tone. I believe plywood to be inherently stronger than tonewood. When I'm throwing the bass in a vehicle with other gear the ply will take knocks better.

And if I was really worried I'd just own two ply basses so I have a backup.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by fingerbun

I use a Chinese ply for pubs and clubs, and keep my carved bass aside for orchestra.

Broke the heck once when it was dropped. Clean break, simple repair. A small ding on the body where the neck hit it when it broke.

On the carved bass the same drop would still likely have broken the neck, but a much more expensive repair on a good instrument. Also the ding on the body might have been a split on the front had it been a carved bass. More repairs.

Avoiding that damage to the good bass just once paid for the ply instrument and then some.

That aside no reliability issues. But I bought carefully and paid to have some arts of the bass upgraded for durability and tone. I believe plywood to be inherently stronger than tonewood. When I'm throwing the bass in a vehicle with other gear the ply will take knocks better.

And if I was really worried I'd just own two ply basses so I have a backup.

Sure makes sense that you'd want to bang around a cheap ply rather than your carved bass. It's cheap and durable but how does it sound? I trust you'd agree that you gotta draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, any of us who own carved basses would just buy plys and never take the good bass out of the house.

[Waltjie]

Originally Posted by drurb

Otherwise, any of us who own carved basses would just buy plys and never take the good bass out of the house.

Maybe you should.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Waltjie

Maybe you should.

Really? Why? I would surely miss playing my carved bass. I bought it to play it! I'll bet most here would agree with me. Now, if we're talking about a really hostile environment such that there's a high likelihood of damage, then sure, I'd give up the advantages of the carved bass and play a robust ply that I'd borrow or rent. In fact, that's part of my plan for outdoor gigs during the summer, etc.

[marvin spangles]

Originally Posted by drurb

I would surely miss playing my carved bass. I bought it to play it! I'll bet most here would agree with me. etc.

I totally agree. I think a good instrument inspires you to play and most importantly practice. I think I'd find it hard to practice on an instrument that didn't sound good.

[Rebop]

Originally Posted by marvin spangles

I totally agree. I think a good instrument inspires you to play and most importantly practice. I think I'd find it hard to practice on an instrument that didn't sound good.

You're not just stuck with just one bass and pumping at the volumes I do live, they all sound like a double bass.
My CCB never leaves its gig bag at home and often times becomes a sort of coat rack with miscellaneous sweat stained shirts and other gig clothes strewn upon it.
All my inspiration and practice is with my good bass; I don't stand on that bass. I hate babying it on the road and don't want to be bothered shoving drunk people off it in those bar gigs. It was a HUGE weight that was lifted when I got the CCB. Someone came up while I was playing and started banging on my strings mid-song the other week (happens from time to time). I was able to smile and enjoy the experience with them. When I only had the Epiphone B-3, this meant you were getting kicked out of the bar by the bouncer with just a little nod of my head and not before getting shoved to the ground and getting the mic stand to fall on you- with force (I never dropped a beat when I did it either ).

Don't do this with a bass you actually give a crap about.

[drurb]

I guess if you play such hostile venues, a CCB makes sense. As a small-group jazzer, there's nowhere I play (except for those outdoor type gigs that I mentioned) where my one and only carved bass would be at risk. Were I to play more gigs where I felt "my baby" to be at risk, then I'd probably pick up a nice ply bass. I don't expect I'll ever play in venues where it's so risky that a CCB represents an appropriate trade-off. I realize that there are others who do. I just don't travel in those circles. I'd "give a crap" about any bass I'd own. No DB I own is ever going to be (ab)used as a stage prop. Again, I understand that, for others, they can be.

[Jsn]

Originally Posted by drurb

No DB I own is ever going to be (ab)used as a stage prop. Again, I understand that, for others, they can be.

Yeah, this is my problem too. Even if it's a crappy instrument, it wants to BE an instrument, I feel. It wants to sing, even in that bent, bleaty voice it has. I've been given crappy/trashed instruments in the past with invitations to abuse them onstage (a banjo, a guitar) and I end up putting hours and money into them, trying to get them to sound as good as they can within their limitations. I'm just inclined to respect them in that way, but like you I understand how others might feel and do otherwise.

I'm reminded of Bob Gollihur's beloved Kay. When got it as a teenager it was a magician's prop. He restored it to instrument status and the rest is history.

[Rebop]

Let me preface this by saying I don't take any of it too seriously. Life's too short. I do this to have fun and make some money as music can be an exciting and lucrative business. Let's make the most of it and use the tools provided to achieve our ultimate goal. The entertainment of others!
That being said...

My Palatino is no stage prop. Yes, it's showbiz; but still played as an instrument with some level of reverence. I use it to get work in an over-the-top rockabilly scene (it's a lot of fun and pays well). When amplified and played at the volumes I do with it (really loud), it has no discernible tonal differences or inferiority to any other bass I've played, as I have put hours (minutes actually) and money into it so it can be the best it can (yeah, acoustically it still stinks but what do you expect? I have another bass for that). I let her sing- although she's an ugly mongoloid.
It may even see a jazz combo or two if I'm playing outside as it does have a decent amplified tone (and who wants an antique bass getting rained on or beer spilled on it by some foolish drunkard?). However, when it wears out to the point I cannot resuscitate her (which I doubt as it's built tough as steamer trunk), I'll get another one and do the same thing to it. It's also a tax deduction.

My friend Paul lights his Prima CCB bass on fire and plays the dickens out of it. Why can't we have both? It's not that big of a deal. He's got some nice basses too that will never get licked by a flame.


Just because we perform stage antics that some perceive as being abusive or reducing the instrument to a prop is a disservice to us and shows a lack of understanding. We're players too and we do have tons of respect for our instruments. I'm not smashing the bass a la Pete Townsend just for a reaction from the audience. Would it be more acceptable if I had Francois Rabbath throw it out a window for me? And how is any other plywood bass going to serve me better than the Palatino I got (for arguments sake)? I've played Engleharts and other similar brands that people seem to love and I think they're overpriced junk (especially Engles with that weird square profile neck and poly lacquer that's too thick). Most higher end, decent plywood basses, are just too expensive for most musicians' budgets anyways and defeat the purpose of having a road bass or beater bass.
I'm guessing most of the people that dis the CCB's don't have multiple basses for different types of gigs (I don't turn down any work based on style. Gimmie jazz, gimmie blues, gimmie country, gimmie dinner theater, gimmie rockabilly, gimmie R&B). I have a CCB for "showbiz" (the band calls it my "stunt bass" or "the stunt double"), a nice vintage ply for everything else and am working on getting a carved bass again just for jazz gigs, recording sessions and theater work or whatever else I see fit for it. Who says you have to let the crummy instrument inspire you? Get a decent one for that; when you get on stage, let the music take care of the inspirations. And most of all- have fun.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Rebop

...Just because we perform stage antics that some perceive as being abusive or reducing the instrument to a prop is a disservice to us and shows a lack of understanding. We're players too and we do have tons of respect for our instruments. I'm not smashing the bass a la Pete Townsend just for a reaction from the audience.

Overall, I agree with what you said but not with the statement above. That seems like over-playing the role of the "victim." No one here, least of all me, passed any judgment. Again, speaking for myself, I was careful to point out what are my preferences, while recognizing that it is different for others. The irony is that you draw the line at what Townsend did. Hmm... that's no less valid under the banner of entertainment. I wouldn't do it and it seems you wouldn't either. Then again, I would never do with a bass what you do.

Originally Posted by Rebop

...And how is any other plywood bass going to serve me better than the Palatino I got (for arguments sake)? I've played Engleharts and other similar brands that people seem to love and I think they're overpriced junk (especially Engles with that weird square profile neck and poly lacquer that's too thick). Most higher end, decent plywood basses, are just too expensive for most musicians' budgets anyways and defeat the purpose of having a road bass or beater bass.

Given what you do, any other plywood bass would not likely serve you better. Again, ironically, you engage in the behavior of which you seem to be accusing others by asserting that higher end ply basses "are just too expensive for most musicians' budgets anyways and defeat the purpose of having a road bass or beater bass." Many fine players that post here regularly play higher end ply basses. Many have them as "road basses." So, for many musicians they are certainly are not too expensive and they, in fact, serve the purpose of a road bass very well!

So, if you look over the posts in this thread, you find that others have expressed that, given their own preferences and needs, they would not choose your path while recognizing it's validity for players such as yourself. On the other hand, you don't seem to have the same respect for the choices that others make.

[Rebop]

Originally Posted by drurb

you don't seem to have the same respect for the choices that others make.

I honestly don't care as long as we're all having fun and enjoying what we do.

Originally Posted by drurb

Many fine players that post here regularly play higher end ply basses. Many have them as "road basses."

I would if I could afford it. I want a New Standard Cleveland; I wouldn't stand on that one.

Originally Posted by drurb

The irony is that you draw the line at what Townsend did.

I sure don't. Just making a point that I'm not purposefully destroying the instrument. If I was in Mr. Townsend's position, I'd probably do the same.