Palatino Violin Upright

[Cokeman170]

Has anybody played Palatino's Violin Curved upright? I know their Travel basse's fingerboard is sh**, and im wondering if the Violin one is anybody. It looks alright.

Help?

(I know this may have already been adressed, sorry)
Thanks,
-Cokeman170

[Cathead]

I have 2 Palatinos, but I am not familiar with the term "curved upright". The Palatino EUB is a so-so bass with what I think is inferior electronics. The acoustic Palatino bass I have needs a good setup. Contrary to popular theory it has not self destructed in the 2 years I have owned it. But, it's hard to play compared to my other uprights. I think some nut work would remedy that.

[Steve Swan]

About a week ago I had a very nice lunch with the heads of the companies that build and import the Palatino stuff along with their more successful Recording King banjos and guitars and lots of other stringed instrument lines. In a rare moment of completely candid comments about his products, the top guy admitted that his "basses are crap". This company can really put out almost any quality level of instrument that it puts its mind to. They just haven't seen fit to improve their basses yet to get them out of the race for the bottom position that they share with Cremona.

On the other hand, the owner of the company that brings in Cremona basses is in full denial about the numerous quality issues with his bass-shaped objects. He is unlikely to change his instruments at all for the better until he can admit to himelf how terrible these things are.

The basses fromthese two companies are nothing more than "get-by" instruments at very cheap retail prices. Judging by the great number of these things on craigslist that really are used or sold as so by fly-by-night garage dealers, these basses can hardly be seen as any kind of real investment in a musical future.

Friends don't let friends play Palatino or Cremona basses.

[Cathead]

Why yeah.......what Steve said. I'm not at home right now, and I suspect when I get home both of mine will be lying in heaps.

[Bob Branstetter]

Steve is only explaining what those of us in the repair business have known for years. There are good reasons why many luthiers (like me) refuse to work on them any more. No one likes having to tell a customer that the cost of repairs is going to exceed the price of a buying a new one. That's not a theory, it's a fact.

I guess the law of averages dictates that there have to be a few that won't self destruct. Consider yourself one of fortunate ones.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I saw one of these, or shall I say parts of one of these recently and couldn't believe how flimsy the body parts were. It may have been a Cremona, I don't recall, but it was surely nowhere the instrument my bottom of the line Christopher was. The neck had come loose and taken a good part of the ribs with it. I cannot imagine anyone expecting much from these things.
Good used basses are available for around $1000, please save your money.

[Dubbin]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

On the other hand, the owner of the company that brings in Cremona basses is in full denial about the numerous quality issues with his bass-shaped objects. He is unlikely to change his instruments at all for the better until he can admit to himelf how terrible these things are. The basses fromthese two companies are nothing more than "get-by" instruments at very cheap retail prices. Judging by the great number of these things on craigslist that really are used or sold as so by fly-by-night garage dealers, these basses can hardly be seen as any kind of real investment in a musical future. Friends don't let friends play Palatino or Cremona basses.

You know, the thing you guys don't seem to get is the fact that most of the basses your selling or pitching are 2.5 to 3 times more expensive than the lower end basses and not everybody wants to shell out this kind of dough to try DB. The claim is that those of us that have these instruments that haven't fallen apart are a small minority is suspect. If you read this board and take everything for gospel then the vast majority of these basses implode within a year. The place I bought mine (actually where my wife bought it) said that they have had good luck with Cremona. Around here I can tell you that used basses on craigslist are fairly rare and the ones I have seen mostly needed work that could double the outlay. If buy a cheap bass and you're afraid of losing the investment due to a failure than these are not for you but I think it should be fairly obvious that you can break the more expensive basses too. The difference being that you really shouldn't rush off to a high priced luthier with a cheap bass but rather glue up the joint yourself if it needs it. You take your chances and roll the dice. I'm completely happy with my Cremona SB-2 which is definitely a beginner instrument but I play it every day and like it. If I feel like investing the dough to upgrade in the future I'll sell this one for most of what I bought it for unless it implodes then I'll glue it and sell it. Best, Ed

[Cathead]

Until recently I had hardly any money to invest in a bass. I picked up a Palatino for $500.00 and for 2 years I played bass in a bluegrass band on this bass and for 3 years before that I had another Chinese no name bass that I sold to get the Palatino. Yes, I could have said they are cheap and if I can't have one that costs 3 times as much then I will sit at home and I won't have any bass at all. But, the fact is I have had a blast on the Palatino and the one before that. I am fortunate enough now to own a fully carved bass and a wonderful plywood bass. If I woulda had the money back then I woulda went with the better basses that I have now, but I didn't, and if I had it to do over again I would grab the Palatino and make do with what I had. Like I said, I had a ball with mine. I am not advising anyone to buy a Palatino if they can do better. But, if you can't see any light at the end of the tunnel.......oh well.

[Steve Swan]

Just to clarify a couple of points here. When I write about how unacceptable the quality is on Cremona and Palatino basses, it's a public service announcement and not a sales pitch for something else. There is a quality level below which nothing is a good deal at any price. It's just bad stuff. Palatino and Cremona specifically market their bass-shaped-objects by preying on the thrifty nature and inexperience of the typical bluegrass bass player in selling this junk. I play some Bluegrass myself and wince when I see someone struggling to make music on these terrible instruments.

It kills me that players in the northeast have lots of local dealers available that could drive over and hand select their own good quality basses (Shen, Calin Wultur, Mathias Thoma, etc., etc.) for store stock from a warehouse that's not too far away. I can and do pick out some of my stock of a few brands that I carry by driving 450 miles each way to the greater Los Angeles area. The two brands that are distributed locally to me (4 and 7 miles away) are Cremona and Palatino! The San Francisco Bay Area is flooded with this junk. I sure wish that John Sprague would get really sick of winter snow and move his Shen warehouse to South San Francisco! So far I have not been successful in campaigning to the owners of the companies that distribute that they make significant improvements in their basses. I count these people as good friends and I've known them for decades. Palatino recognizes the problems, but they are focused on the their banjo and guitar lines right now. Cremona seems intent on keeping its head buried deep in the sand of denial.

On the San Francisco Craigslist I see new postings every day for used and "used" Palatino and Cremona basses for $600-1000. A couple of times a week I'll see used Engelhardt basses for $800-1200. I'd suggest to the budding player on a tight budget that a setup Engelhardt (which I don't personally like much at all, but at least it will hold up) is the minimum level of quality that you ought to be buying for playing Bluegrass. You could probably find a used Shen SB 80 for about $1000-1200 and that would be far superior to any Engelhardt and 95% of the Kay basses out there.

I serve a local customer base here and it really doesn't make sense for me to ship the least expensive basses a couple of thousand miles away. I'm not trying to market basses to the east coast or the south. Cathead and Dubbin, you've got a lot of friendly brothers and uncles here on the forum that are trying to help keep you on the right path and out of trouble. Please take our words to heart and don't get mad or suspicious when you see suggestions that don't make sense to you yet. We're trying to help you get more enjoyment out of the music that you play and to keep you from throwing away your good money on junk that is difficult to play will have low resale value when it's time to move up.

I fully understand being on a tight budget, especially when you are young or have a family eating up most of your resources. I started out on a messed up Kay for $300, got a heavy 1970s Roth hybrid for $700, and then some older messed up European flatbacks for $400 and $750 in my first 6 years of playing. All of these basses presented challenges due to their condition, but none of them were built to such impossibly low quality standards as Cremona and Palatino.

Happy hunting! Let us know how the never-ending search turns out.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

It kills me to see players owning several electric basses talking about how these things are all they can afford.

[Cathead]

Originally Posted by clink

It kills me to see players owning several electric basses talking about how these things are all they can afford.

Dude, you don't know my story. I already had those electric basses when a terrible health blow set me back and my wife lost a substantial employement at the same time. We had a very rough time.....real rough. I was still struggling when I decided to get into the DB world. I shouldn't have even got the DB that I got when I did. Musicians have trouble keeping their priorities in order, and I'm no exception. You don't know.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I wasn't picking on you personally man, but have noticed it to be fairly common that BG players will own multiple pieces of gear, amps etc. Heck, I've seen guys over on the BG side with collections of basses identical except for color. My point was, and is that the sale of just one electric bass might be enough to make the difference in getting a used DB that would be a better long term investment. As people move from the BG to the DB world, these kinds of questions come up regularly here, and I was commenting on a trend. As such, it was not directly aimed at you. Please accept my apology.

I'm sorry about your situation. I hope the future is good for you.

[Cathead]

Clink, I don't want you feelin' bad about your post. It's OK. I do have several electric basses, but each one has a different set-up for different sounds I try to achieve when I record (5-string, fretless, acoustic, different strings, etc.). Yeah, I coulda sold one or two to boost my purchase of a DB, but another factor comes into play there. There is nowhere here remotely close to shop for basses. When I did get back on my feet financially I had to drive 3 hours just one way to buy a bass. I can't just go downtown and visit bass shops or pawn shops who may have a decent bass. There are none. There is one music store about an hour away and the Palatino is all they had. I could have ordered one, but then there is no one here to set it up. The closest person I know of who could set one up for me is Jerry Fretwell.....over 3 hours away. Again, don't feel bad about your post. I apologize as well for not cooling off before I posted what I did. I'm sorry.

[Dubbin]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

Please take our words to heart and don't get mad or suspicious when you see suggestions that don't make sense to you yet. We're trying to help you get more enjoyment out of the music that you play and to keep you from throwing away your good money on junk that is difficult to play will have low resale value when it's time to move up.

I fully understand being on a tight budget, especially when you are young or have a family eating up most of your resources. I started out on a messed up Kay for $300, got a heavy 1970s Roth hybrid for $700, and then some older messed up European flatbacks for $400 and $750 in my first 6 years of playing. All of these basses presented challenges due to their condition, but none of them were built to such impossibly low quality standards as Cremona and Palatino.

Happy hunting! Let us know how the never-ending search turns out.

Hi, I'm not mad or suspicious. . . this is a civil discussion. I just wanted to point out that not everybody agrees with your learned opinion and that a cheap bass works for some folks. The truth is that I could buy most of the production basses people talk about on this board without a problem but choose not do because of how I decided to balance a bunch of other responsibilities (and toys) in my life. I just happened to pluck a string on a bass when walking through a music store and decided to give it a try because I liked the sound (I knew nothing about DB at all really). In Maine there have been a couple of DB's on craigslist over the past year (i would be surprised if the number is greater than four). I have the Cremona for now and possibly for years to come. I played it with a local group of fiddlers weekly all year, made a CD and had four concerts, and I intend to drag it into work every Monday next year to do it all over again. The money is spent for now and the most limiting factor with my playing is the player but that gets a little better every month.

About the bass:

I understand your comments about quality. All of the below mentioned issues are careless stuff that could have been prevented in manufacture for no extra costs:

It has sanding dips in several places.
I can see some of the white marker poking through the stain where they marked out the f-holes.
It has stain lines due to glue squeeze outs (i.e. the wood is more blond for about a 1/16 on the joints).
The glue squeeze out on the inside is much more profound. On the bright side it seems to have plenty of glue.
The G string is lower than I'd like it.
The C-bout has an ill fitting corner block on one side that they forced together and glued. You have to look long and hard at it to notice but it's there.
The ebony fingerboard seems fine to me but I don't know how to play the upper register.
The bottom of the back is a little loose on the outside edge (I had a post about this) but it doesn't seem to be any worse or an an actual separation. Thumb pressure shows a slight opening but I think that it is only the glue on the overhang and the glue seems to be holding the actual joint together just fine. Two luthiers have checked it out and said forget about it.
The tuners can be a little sticky.
I suspect that the "double purfling" is painted because I can see the grain pattern extend into the center between the two black lines.
The joints seem tight and despite regular close inspections I don't see any evidence of impending failure.

On the bright side:
I get complements on the sound by the other musicians.
I have not babied this bass at all. I slap it along to old records from time to time. Beyond weekly rehearsals, I drag it up to the summer cottage and I plan on bring it up to our ski cabin this winter.
Most of the other basses I've seen are Kays and this one doesn't sound as good as some but sounds better than a few. The leader of our group (sort of a a fiddle orchestra for Franco American and Cape Breton music) made a fully carved bass that I tried and found it to be far better.

Anyways, enough said. I played it a couple hours today and will again tomorrow.

Final point, I agree that beginners would be better off to buy a used higher quality bass if they are available in your area. If you do get a Cremona or Palatino I'd look it over very well as I can't imagine that a lot of the reputation is not deserved. I'd also advise folks to not get too wound up on the possibility of a $700 bass coming apart. Worse things happen in life and you can't always glue them.

Best Regards,

Ed

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

It's cool. I got to thinking, as I do every now and then .
I own three electric basses, all Fender Jazz type projects. One is a fretless, another old school with flats and an active one with Bartolini pups. All three are necessary to me for different uses when I play slab. However, a lot of DB players don't even own a slab and my teacher has two nice DBs and an inexpensive slab.

IMO, it has to do with priorities. Were I to sell two of my slabs, and an amp I could upgrade my DB, but I use all of them. As my DB gigs continue to increase, I do expect to upgrade, although I expect to used the same slabs for the rest of my life. No doubt, many of us make choices regarding our tools and will spend our money accordingly.

My thinking when I originally came at this subject was this: When I bought my first DB, I briefly considered an Chinese EBAY bass, but found a very nice used Christopher ply for $850. Several months later, I sold it for a profit. Had I spent $500 on EBAY it would have been a loser. I trust the opinions of experiences luthiers in this area and recommend anyone entering the DB world think carefully before spending their hard earned money.

Originally Posted by Cathead

Clink, I don't want you feelin' bad about your post. It's OK. I do have several electric basses, but each one has a different set-up for different sounds I try to achieve when I record (5-string, fretless, acoustic, different strings, etc.). Yeah, I coulda sold one or two to boost my purchase of a DB, but another factor comes into play there. There is nowhere here remotely close to shop for basses. When I did get back on my feet financially I had to drive 3 hours just one way to buy a bass. I can't just go downtown and visit bass shops or pawn shops who may have a decent bass. There are none. There is one music store about an hour away and the Palatino is all they had. I could have ordered one, but then there is no one here to set it up. The closest person I know of who could set one up for me is Jerry Fretwell.....over 3 hours away. Again, don't feel bad about your post. I apologize as well for not cooling off before I posted what I did. I'm sorry.

[catty]

[quote=clink;4922613No doubt, many of us make choices regarding our tools and will spend our money accordingly.
[/QUOTE]

Quite. Out of all of my 20-30 stringed instruments, all are acoustic except for one fretless BG and one strat.

[Cokeman170]

Hey guy! c'mon! Ok heres the deal: I have $800 of store credit at absolute music for renting my sax for years. He says he will let me buy an upright since i am taking bass lessons from his brother. I already have the VE-500, and i played the "travel bass" in the store. I am wondering about the actual violin corner bass (http://www.palatinousa.com/Violin-Co...ss.1517.0.html). I cant afford any thing else and i didnt much the like the travel bass. so what im getting at is has someone played this specific bass? is it any better than their travl bass?

Thanks ;]

[Cathead]

I have not played that model, but I own the VB-009. It has an ebony fingerboard which is cool. The bass needs to be set up better with some attention to the nut. The tailpiece is maple and not very good. I played mine for 2 years in a bluegrass group with no problems. Here's the link to a video we did with me on the Palatino:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-vfQcwBCzY

[Flo'Daddy]

I had a Palatino and had it set up in Denver right after I bought it. It was my first bass and I did have some issues (had to reglue the laminated wood around the f-holes). All in all, I sold it (after owning it for 5 years) for $400 to a student looking to buy a cheap upright bass.

The thing is, it sounded great after being set up! The plywood is thinner than my '62 Kay and my carved top bass. Because of this, it seems to vibrate more. I was coming from the electric bass, so I had it set up to play with very low action, as is the person that I sold it to. As my strength developed, I raised it up. While I don't regret selling it, I don't regret buying it, either.

Just my two cents....probably not even worth that much!

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I played a Cremona in an Antique store down in Arkansas Saturday, complete with red, white and blue nylons! The thing was very loud and boomy and perhaps the thin top contributed to that. The entire bass was really moving. Afraid that it would explode, I put it back. The dealer told me it was at least 75 years old and had $900 on it. I figured it was about $800 too much.