Ply vs Hybrid vs Fully Carved

TPugh · #1 08-07-2006, 05:53 AM

First of all, I have studied the Newbies section extensively, yet I still have questions. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

I currently own an Engelhardt C-1 and I am looking to upgrade. I live in Tennessee where it can get very hot and humid and I mainly play bluegrass (once a week, I play an outdoors jam for about three hours). Long term, I would like to learn jazz, but I'm not sure that I'll ever have an interest in playing anything with a bow.

My question is, when I decide to upgrade, do I stick with trying to find a better quality ply or go with a hybrid or fully carved bass? Is a ply better suited for the music I play? If I saved and waited for a fully carved bass, are the conditions in which I live a threat to its durability? Is it possible to get a "one size fits all" bass for all playing styles or are certain woods better suited for music types/weather conditions. I'd like to stay away from getter another ply (even if the quality is better) if I will just eventually wish I had saved for a hybrid or even a fully carved bass.

I know the best option is playing different basses. Most of the people I play with in the bluegrass circuit have older Kays or other plys. I also realize that there are tons of brand options so I kept them out of this post, opting to just ask general questions about different wood types for different music/playing styles/conditions. If there is a link comparing all three types for different styles/conditions, please share it because I missed it. If not, thanks again for your thoughts.

Thomas Pugh

rdwhit · #2 08-10-2006, 10:02 PM

I sugjest the new standard cleveland plywood.Check out the sight--just enter " keyword new standard bass "

rdwhit · #3 08-10-2006, 10:12 PM

Oh Thomas,duh,I now see the add for the new standard bass looking right at me on this page.Click it on,check it out,then start a thread with your questions about your needs and what other folks think about these a new standard 4 you.I think one of the clevelands is the bass for you.I play a LaScala

Jake · #4 08-10-2006, 10:15 PM

I have heard the NS basses are great for their price range, but you could also consider a Shen bass. Shen would be a good choice if you want to go with a fully carved bass, they are well made.

TPugh · #5 08-10-2006, 11:45 PM

Thanks, I have heard that about the Shen Willow. Who knows, I may stick with ply because of my main music/playing interests (bluegrass). If I had the $$$, no doubt, I'd go with NS (and I may wait and save anyway).

I have considered the Shen plys as they are highly recommended on this forum. Is the 100 worth the extra dough over the 80?

I have spoken with the guys at Upton and they were very helpful. I'm considering their laminate and hybrid too.

Thanks again!

jimclark68 · #6 08-11-2006, 05:46 AM

To answer one part of your question: I don't think you'll find any big durability differences between a hybrid and a full ply bass. I started on an Engelhardt EM-1 and bought a lower-end hybrid earlier this year for only a few bux more than a reasonable ply. Even though it's a student-quality hybrid, the tone is still improved over the Engle. It's been through cold, dry winter weather and hot, humid summer weather without incident.

Sam Sherry · #7 08-11-2006, 06:33 AM

From my perspective, the double bass is all about tone and like it says here you want real wood to get great tone.

Call me naive, but why would you want to play with people who insist that you compromise your sound?

TPugh · #8 08-11-2006, 06:51 AM

Thanks for the link, Sam. You guys will have to forgive me, I'm still fairly new to this instrument (but quickly becoming a fanatical about it). All of this feedback is tremendously helpful.

I have no problem at all patiently waiting and saving to be able to have a carved bass. Especially if long term that's what I would end up wanting and needing.

***Stupid question alert!*** Do bluegrass players play fully carved basses? Again, the reason I ask is to clarify that the sound is suitable for the music and the durability is suitable for the conditions.

Jake · #9 08-11-2006, 06:53 AM

Edgar does, right?

gomez hacienda · #10 08-11-2006, 07:29 AM

Yeah...I think Edgar only plays bluegrass if Yo Yo Ma is in the band.

drurb · #11 08-11-2006, 07:37 AM

Tpugh, I could not agree more with Sam. I think he and I share the same priorities in terms of sound.

That aside, I think it is important to take into account the fact that you do plan to play outside in Tennessee. The weather conditions might wreak havoc on a fully carved. At the very least, you'd have to be extremely careful.

I also think it is important to take into account that the vast majority of your playing is and might remain bluegrass. It seems that many bluegrass players (bassists and otherwise) prefer the sound of a ply for that type of music. As Sam would call it, that "tubby" sound seems to be considered by some to be part of the genre.

Now, for jazz and, well just about anything else, my opinion (and it is just my opinion) would be that one should try to acquire the best-sounding bass one can afford. Sam's heirarchy (in the link) is right on. Do not, however, be fooled. There are entry level carved basses that, from many standpoints, are far less desirable than a quality ply! Think of ply, hybrid, and carved as three overlapping distributions (bell-curves, if you will), with the mean value of "quality" being lowest for the plys, intermediate for the hybrids, and highest for the carved ones.

An important piece of information that is missing from your posts is your budget. Knowing that is key being able to provide useful advice. For example, suppose you said that you could scrape together $1500. I'd say, sell the Engle and get an Upton hybrid. Suppose you said that you could save up $8000. Well, one option would be to spend that on a decent carved and keep the Engle for the hot days.

Please tell us more.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #12 08-11-2006, 09:28 AM

For what you're looking to do, IMO you could do no better than a New Standard Cleveland ply. Before you buy anything else, you should at least play one of these. They sound wonderful, play like butta, have that big fat bottom that bluegrass players (not to mention Freddie Mercury) seem to love, and are incredibly well constructed. Surely someone not too far from you has one? If you find out, offer to buy them lunch and go check it out. Best of luck.

drurb · #13 08-11-2006, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

For what you're looking to do, IMO you could do no better than a New Standard Cleveland ply. Before you buy anything else, you should at least play one of these. They sound wonderful, play like butta, have that big fat bottom that bluegrass players (not to mention Freddie Mercury) seem to love, and are incredibly well constructed. Surely someone not too far from you has one? If you find out, offer to buy them lunch and go check it out. Best of luck.

This is excellent and solid advice, if the budget fits. The examples in my post went for lower and higher extremes. I guess I left out the middle!

rdwhit · #14 08-11-2006, 04:24 PM

Check my 1st messege from above again,I am in complete agreement with Mr.Fitzgerald.Do what you need to do to check one out,even if you have to drive 100 miles or more.Again,check out the websight.The only thing they leave out is that the original standards were a country western bass that jazz players discovered later.They are loud,fat,and built like sherman tanks.Good luck

(Freddie Mercury? ,w/ tiny little mustache....)

Andy Allen · #15 08-11-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwhit

(Freddie Mercury? ,w/ tiny little mustache....)

Chris is showing his age again

A girlfriend of mine used to share an apartment with (one of) Freddie's boyfriend(s). Those were interesting times...

Andy

CamMcIntyre · #16 08-11-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwhit

Check my 1st messege from above again,I am in complete agreement with Mr.Fitzgerald.Do what you need to do to check one out,even if you have to drive 100 miles or more.Again,check out the websight.The only thing they leave out is that the original standards were a country western bass that jazz players discovered later.They are loud,fat,and built like sherman tanks.Good luck

(Freddie Mercury? ,w/ tiny little mustache....)

Ditto. I've got an NS Cleveland Ply and it is awesome in my mind. Yes i have played a bass that made me go "wow....this is the first time i haven't prefered my cleveland,"-that bass was also valued between $25 & 30k. [belongs to one of my teachers]

One of my regular gigs is playing in a group that does folk rock, bluegrass, singer/songerwriter music. Translation- i'm thumping away on 1 & 5 for a large portion of the songs going for the bluegrass tone. The Cleveland can be a very loud bass-kept up with vocal, acoustic guitar, and mandolin without making me lay into the bass.

The catch to the above statement? I'm actually a jazz bass major and have received compliments on the tone from several killer players (Rob Amster amongst others).

take it easy and good luck.

Uncletoad · #17 08-11-2006, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamMcIntyre

Ditto. I've got an NS Cleveland Ply and it is awesome in my mind. Yes i have played a bass that made me go "wow....this is the first time i haven't prefered my cleveland,"-that bass was also valued between $25 & 30k. [belongs to one of my teachers]

One of my regular gigs is playing in a group that does folk rock, bluegrass, singer/songerwriter music. Translation- i'm thumping away on 1 & 5 for a large portion of the songs going for the bluegrass tone. The Cleveland can be a very loud bass-kept up with vocal, acoustic guitar, and mandolin without making me lay into the bass.

Exactly my experience as well. With the exception that I think my teachers bass, which is up there in dollars doesn't do those grass/rock/blues gigs nearly as well as the Cleveland.

TPugh · #18 08-11-2006, 07:01 PM

As far as testing out other basses, those with whom I have met thus far play older Kays, Epiphones, or Engelhardts (but I am new to this so I am still meeting folks).

From what I have experienced in music stores close to me, I bought my C-1 from a small local store that said they'd had it for years (traded in) and thought they'd never get rid of it. There's one other upright that I know of in Memphis in a another store, and it's an M-1 Engel.

As far as my budget goes, if I estimate correctly, I figure I could sell the Engel and my Fender Jazz, save just a bit, and get an Upton ply. But then I could do the same, save a while even more and eventually go with the Upton Hybrid (if it is indeed suitable for bluegrass in varying conditions).

Sorry, DRURB, I probably not doing a good job of specifically answering your question about my budget. Right now, I'm not sure that I have one to be honest. As I said, I could sell a couple of basses and be out of pocket very little. Or sell, wait (how long depends), and save.

I'm getting the feeling that with patience and more $$$, getting the NS would not be a bad move. I'm just really anxious to move the Engel in exchange for at least something better.

BTW, can new NS basses be purchased from anywhere other than from NS directly or Nick Lloyd. He's in Cinci, right? I'm in West Tennessee. May be worth the trip someday.

drurb · #19 08-12-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TPugh

As far as testing out other basses, those with whom I have met thus far play older Kays, Epiphones, or Engelhardts (but I am new to this so I am still meeting folks).

From what I have experienced in music stores close to me, I bought my C-1 from a small local store that said they'd had it for years (traded in) and thought they'd never get rid of it. There's one other upright that I know of in Memphis in a another store, and it's an M-1 Engel.

As far as my budget goes, if I estimate correctly, I figure I could sell the Engel and my Fender Jazz, save just a bit, and get an Upton ply. But then I could do the same, save a while even more and eventually go with the Upton Hybrid (if it is indeed suitable for bluegrass in varying conditions).

Sorry, DRURB, I probably not doing a good job of specifically answering your question about my budget. Right now, I'm not sure that I have one to be honest. As I said, I could sell a couple of basses and be out of pocket very little. Or sell, wait (how long depends), and save.

I'm getting the feeling that with patience and more $$$, getting the NS would not be a bad move. I'm just really anxious to move the Engel in exchange for at least something better.

BTW, can new NS basses be purchased from anywhere other than from NS directly or Nick Lloyd. He's in Cinci, right? I'm in West Tennessee. May be worth the trip someday.

Hmm. Well, you actually have provided important information about budget. Let's see, the prices, as far as I know, are:

1) Upton ply: $1800
2) Upton hybrid: $2600
3) NS Cleveland: $4050

If you sell your C-1 and your Fender jazz, you figure with a little savings you could go with #1, save a bit more and go with #2, or wait substantially longer and go with #3.

As usual, it's a tradeoff. Your tradeoffs are among desired sound, time, and $$$.

It seems to me that given the style of music you now play, the conditions under which you play, and your inetrest in jazz, #3 might just qualify as your ultimate choice. I would definitely go and play a NS Cleveland! For that matter, why not play one of the Uptons if you can find one?

I always believe in getting the very best bass you can even if it causes a little pain. In the long run, you end up happy. Let us assume that #3 is what you want. If it would take five years before you could get it, personally, I'd make two moves. I'd go for, say, one of the Uptons and sometime later I'd trade up. If you figure you could save for #3 in a substantially shorter time, well, if, indeed, that is your bass of choice, I'd wait.

Of course, how you weight the desire for sound, time, and $$$ is your personal choice and only you can make it. At the very least, I'd suggest you do everything you can to play those basses. That will go a long way in helping you to decide.

Heli Bass · #20 08-12-2006, 12:30 PM

TPugh;

From the durability standpoint, I chose a ply Englehardt EM-1 bass for playing/jamming in the bluegrass scene. I take good care of my instruments, but it is still a big item and you are dragging it through a huge variety of weather conditions. I took the time and money to get it properly set up, play with good strings, and try to use good technique.

I get compliments on how good my bass sounds and it is plenty loud. (I've compared it to the New Standard, Shens and Christophers) I've listened to others play my bass during comparisons also.

I think one of the big reasons it sounds as good as it does is the proper setup I had done to it and the use of good strings. (strings are very subjective, I like Obligatos, YMMV) I do a small amount of Arco playing and like the sound but already know there are better sounds and tone available. With a proper setup and good strings you are WAY ahead of a lot of bluegrass bass players.

I consider the Shen and Christopher Ply models in the same category as my EM1, good beginner instruments for almost anybody, and an adaquate bluegrass bass for most people.

IMHO the New Standard ply is a major upgrade from those. The tone is better (very nice arco and jazz) with more nuances, volume is good, and it is still a durable bass for dragging through great outdoors at jams and festivals. (I haven't played an Upton yet)

Good luck in your quest.