Plywood Basses?

[peterpalmieri]

What's the deal with high end plywoods?

Don't get me wrong I understand plywood vs. hybrid vs. carved. I also understand chinese vs. European vs. American.

That being said I have noticed over the past year or so that I've really paid attention in the DB forum that many Jazz guys prefer plywood and pay big bucks for a Cleveland or Lascala?

More to that guys with thousands and thousands invested in amplification playing the Cleveland. Not much talk of 300 year old italian basses etc.?

I'd also love to hear more discussion on these beautiful old carved instruments, even some great new instruments coming out of locals like the Kolstein shop or even european basses made by Pollman etc....

Why is there a big gap in our discussions?
Pete

[Uncletoad]

Ever since Ken Smith and Paul Warmbuttocks took a powder those discussions have decreased immensely.

I love those high dollar old basses and cutting edge new construction too and like to read about the details from those who have studied them. It's fascinating.

I use that high dollar ply for good reason. It's the best thing I could find for that kind of bread. Anything that performs as well or better is 5 figures and up. I can't justify taking something worth more than my car into a gig in a VFW hall or an afternoon pool party in the summer.

Most important to me is if it gets crushed by some fluke Saturday Night on the gig I can pick up the phone Monday and get another one pretty much like the crushed one.

Someone kills my irreplaceable $20,000 (name your bass) and I'm suicidal.

Amplification is a reality in the trenches. Amplifying a DB is hard and expensive if you do it right. It's easy to sound terrible on a gig in a club with a double bass. It's work to sound good. A $30,000 bass is rarely the answer there.

Between My Bass, Bass Amp, and cabinet it would cost about $6.5K to replace it all. It can be done in a couple phone calls.

But I agree, lets talk more about the high dollar old guys, and I'd like to know more about what Nnick Lloyd is building and who is buying it. I'd like to know more about these 100 year old beauties that live in Orchestra Sections for generations.

Somebody get it started. What do you know? Got any Pics?

Oh and PS.....Nnick Lloyd doesn't use one of his basses when he plays gigs either. He uses a Kay.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

My laminate LaScala is only a laminate because it's my office/suspect weather bass. At the U., they don't control the heat and humidity very well at all, and I'd be nervous about leaving a carved bass there. Given the choice, I'll almost always choose the hybrid with the carved top and ribs for playability and sound. I've never preferred a ply for sound.

That said, I'm a big fan of well made new basses and don't like the idea of the fragility of older instruments...whether that's a psychosis on my part, or whether I've just seen a lot of local guys' basses pop seams, crack, have tops sink, etc. remains to be seen. In any case, I've had three new basses, and nary a repair has had to be made so far. I know I'd worry about an old "valuable" one more, and the LaScala hybrid sounds and plays so beautifully that I can't imagine needing anything better. I'll have to get a hell of a lot better as a player to ever outgrow that bass.

[peterpalmieri]

I owned a Morelli back in college, I was lucky on the timing in that my great aunt left me just enough money at the right time. I sold that bass when I got married, monetarily the right thing to do at the time, but I do regret it. I had no problem dragging that thing anywhere I could.

I am lucky enough to live very close to the Kolstein shop, they have a huge amount of great instruments that I can't afford and have no business owning anyway. I own a Kolstein Hybrid Busetto, his Botti model which is fully carved is in the same price range as a cleveland I wonder the difference?

Personally I fell in love with the Fendt a great instrument for the price but still out of my range, the hybrid was much closer to the Botti and to me not worth the extra $.

As far as high quality new I couldn't agree more, I played some pretty amazing basses, Barrie has tons of them, none really blew away the Fendt. Don't get me wrong I know there are many out there that do and in many cases I am probably not even good enough to know the difference.

More to that for jazz/pizz playing the Kolstein travel bass sounded as good as any amplified.

All this being said if I had the funds I'd purchase one of the Prescotts in Barries shop. Any thoughts on the Pollman, I drool over them on the Lemur site, are they as wonderful as they look?

[Snarf]

Once my orchestra chops start developing, I'll probably invest in a nice Pollman. I love the arco sound Patitucci gets out of his. But it is a bummer there's not more talk of high end basses. My Upton laminate is a great jazz bass, I'll have it forever, and will be just fine to start learning orchestal technique, but in a few years I see myself upgrading to something on the order of $10-20k.

[neal davis]

a bass is just an instrument that will help you express what you have to say in your head. I like the bass I have it is worth about 10k and it is a bastard bass(different parts of many basses) I've played basses worth considerably more than mine and many that are considerbly less. No matter what instrument you play you should try and sound like yourself. On tour recently I borrowed an old hawkes and hated it, it was a 35k bass, didn't matter I liked the sound of mine better, the next night I had an old ply sounded great, the next night a really nice pollman etc etc, what I'm trying to say buy the bass that sounds great to you, who cares how much it costs or who made it. If you like it and can afford it buy it.

[damonsmith]

I am with Uncle Toad on not wanting to drag a $20,000 bass around to gigs but there is a middle ground. I am way into getting the best gear for the least amount of $$ for the same reasons.
Still, you can find a decent carved bass that resonates well for a few thousand.
A solid piece of wood is going to vibrate better and do a lot of the work for you.
I played a Czech ease recently and it is impressive for a plywood bass but not as good as even a cheap carved bass.
They just don't respond as well.
Plywood will amplify the sound, but there is no response.
I have a student who recently got a perfectly playable Chinese bass with a carved top for $1200, because it had a neck repair. If you have any interest arco or unamplified playing they are just a waste of time and money, IMO.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I played a Czech ease recently and it is impressive for a plywood bass but not as good as even a cheap carved bass.
They just don't respond as well.
Plywood will amplify the sound, but there is no response.
I have a student who recently got a perfectly playable Chinese bass with a carved top for $1200, because it had a neck repair. If you have any interest arco or unamplified playing they are just a waste of time and money, IMO.

In general I agree with this concept. I believe the Cleveland is an exception. Most people who play one feel that way. Have you tried one?

[M Ramsey]

I'd love to own a old carved Italian bass, maybe a couple hundred years old. I have enough other bills right now to prevent me from probably ever doing that.

I play American Standards, 2 of them. One with guts, one with Animas or Garbos. When you travel around playing bluegrass you need a stable instrument, since most of the playing is outside. In that format, you want volume and tone. For what these basses are, they have those 2 qualities.

Bob Beerman let me play a Shen Willow carved bass in his shop a couple of years ago and I was drooling. If I were to break over into the carved bass category, that would probably be where I'd head. Wonderful, big, deep, thick tone and volume...it was right down my alley (most of us, if the truth be known).

There's volumous amounts of money to be made playing bass, that is, if you're the principal player in some major symphony. For the rest of us poor saps, it's the love of playing music, not the money, that keeps us reaching for that brass ring.

Not to downplay anyone's desire to own a good carved bass, if I had the ability, I'd be the first to do so. But I DO have to play music. My wife can't put up with me when I'm between bands. I get rally irritable when that happens. More power to those who CAN own a rare carved bass.

As for me and UncleToad, we probably just as soon spend money on strings and a bunch of other trinkets to make the sound happen, night after night, rather than scraping together the bucks for a 4K-5K repair on a rather fragile, expensive, rare carved bass.

Am I right, Phil?

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by M Ramsey

As for me and UncleToad, we probably just as soon spend money on strings and a bunch of other trinkets to make the sound happen, night after night, rather than scraping together the bucks for a 4K-5K repair on a rather fragile, expensive, rare carved bass.

Am I right, Phil?

Or buy my wife a better car.

[peterpalmieri]

So looking at the new standard pricing on there website 4k for a plywood, I purchased a Kolstein hybrid for less, it is roughed out in europe and finished in NY. The same can be said for a cleveland Hybrid 5k, again I could get a fully carved instrument through the Kolstein shop for a similar price slightly more.

To M Ramsey's point why wouldn't more people be buying a full carved or hybrid instrument from Barrie? vs these other option. Are the online prices quoted not what everyone is paying, do they sound much better because they are 100% made in the USA?

[jallenbass]

The only way to answer that is to play the Kolsteins and the New Standards side by side. Anything else is just an intellectual exercise.

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

So looking at the new standard pricing on there website 4k for a plywood, I purchased a Kolstein hybrid for less, it is roughed out in europe and finished in NY. The same can be said for a cleveland Hybrid 5k, again I could get a fully carved instrument through the Kolstein shop for a similar price slightly more.

To M Ramsey's point why wouldn't more people be buying a full carved or hybrid instrument from Barrie? vs these other option. Are the online prices quoted not what everyone is paying, do they sound much better because they are 100% made in the USA?

Peter,

I hope I haven't confused you. I play American Standards, NOT New Standards. The New Standard basses are wonderful basses and they derive part of their design from the American Standard bass, made from the mid-30's up until the 60's. One of my basses was made around '39-'41 and the other is from the mid-to-late 50's.

A lot of what you get from these basses (new Standard or American Standard) depends on your style of playing. These basses can be bowed but a lot of players choose them for pizz work. That's where me and UncleToad live. Mashing on the bass, playing jazz or bluegrass, holding down the root 5.

I really don't want to deal with cracked tops from a carved or hybrid bass, since my gigs require me to put the instrument in a variety of climate changing situations.

If you haven't tried it, you owe it to yourself try one of the New Standards. There are several threads here singing the praises of these basses and probably instances where players have sold their carved instruments after buying a New Standard. They are much more durable.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by M Ramsey

Bob Beerman let me play a Shen Willow carved bass in his shop a couple of years ago and I was drooling. If I were to break over into the carved bass category, that would probably be where I'd head. Wonderful, big, deep, thick tone and volume...it was right down my alley (most of us, if the truth be known).

That's why I have one. Like others have said, I don't want to bring a $20K bass to a bar. I shopped around and intended to spend more but I kept coming back to it. I love the tone and the price is hard to beat.

That said, I kept my old German ply. I played that bass for 10 years and it still feels like home. It lives at my teaching studio which, like Chris' U, has pretty dicey climate control in the winter. That bass has been in 100 degree full sun, rain, kids have played it, it had a cymbal stand fall on it (ouch), it was packed into the front seat of a Plymouth Horizon, the neck broke off, not to mention all manner of ungodly things that go on in a bar. The thing always gets put back together and plays like it always has.

[blindeddie]

i played one of the New Standards in David Gage's shop about 2 years ago, and it was a really great bass. without a doubt, the best plywood i have ever played. and i must say, had a very nice finish on that one in particular.
but for myself, i went with a fully carved bass from Kolstein. it is one of their designs, but as mentioned before, made in romania, and set-up here with Kolstein's fittings. i paid $4K for my bass. a 7/8 flat-back, fully carved Liandro DiVacenza Orchestral, and i wouldn't trade her for anything. i just can't justify paying five figures for a bass, i don't feel that even if i were at that level (which i'm definitely NOT), that i could justify that kinda price. especially considering master players like Christian McBride and Ron Carter only play $5K Juzeks!
but the Kolsteins are very very nice. mine is solid as a rock, built to last, and sounds wonderful. it has a huge sound. great projection. and is very rich and dark sounding. it's work equally well both pizz and arco. it's only short coming is the finish leave a little to be desired, in that it's a little thick, but it still speaks very very well, and i guess it also protects the bass somewhat. mine was pretty "raw" sounding at first, and needed a more fine-tuned set-up, but now that she's played in, the tone is spectacular! especially when i have the chance to sit back, and listen to my teacher play her. the different perspective really helps you listen objectively, and i couldn't be happier. i actually prefer the tone of my bass to his old german.

[MollyPBass]

I have a new standard hybrid that I got from Arnold Schnitzer and it is really incredible. The way Schnitzer sets his basses up makes them easy to play and easy to get a beautiful tone on.

[peterpalmieri]

1. I should say I am very happy with my kolstein Hybrid and am not at the point of wanting or needing to upgrade.

2. A number of people have mentioned not wanting to bring out 5 digit instrument 20k or 30k into a bar, very understandable.

All that being said there is plenty of variety in the $5,000 - $9,999 carved instrument space. While I have a limited experience with everything out there as most do, you can get a really great sounding and playing instrument that is also very reliable it seems to be maybe a topic that isn't as highly discussed or maybe even a market that isn't promoted.

Even on this site you see allot of adds for Upton and Englehart (sp?) really entry level. You also can find at Lemur, Kolstein, Gage and others that have great inventories of 15k plus old world instruments.

In my ventures into the Kolstein shop I have heard many stories of real pros in big symphonies playing basses in that 9k range even though most are labelled as high end student basses.

[Uncletoad]

I too played a Shen Willow side by side with the Cleveland in the same room moving back and forth. It was fantastic and gave me pause. I really didn't want to buy another Plywood bass, I already had a good one.

I kept coming back to that Cleveland-It just spoke to me. Felt more comfortable. The pizz was deep and quicker to respond. The mids were punchy and the whole bass played even up and down and side to side. Sounded more like me. The willow had open and dead spots, hot spots etc. It roared and was rich sounding but the Cleveland was louder faster and deeper.

I wasn't planning on buying a bass either, It just spoke to me. I knew immediately when I first played it that it was my next voice.

...and having said all that I intend to buy a fully carved something one day. I keep working on my arco. I know my DB voice is changing too as I grow as a player. One day like the Cleveland, I'll play something somewhere that will be so compelling I'll have to buy it too. I have this fantasy of a rich sounding ancient huge bass that needs spirocores just to brighten it up. Think Ray Brown late 50's.

Hopefully Baby Vincent's college fund won't make me have to walk away.

[skipper]

I just finished a very nice book called The Violin Maker by John Marchese about a luthier in Brooklyn New York who is commissioned by a professional violinist to make an instrument he can use when his Stradavari is not responding as he would like. Although the book is about the making of a fiddle, much of it has to do with the issue of venerable Italian instruments vs. ones made by craftspeople today. It not only explores the art of carving violins, but also the selection of tonewood, formulating varnishes, etc. As a person who plays a Kay and who hankers for the sound and romance of a great old carved instrument, I found the book an eye-opener and an antidote to craving the unattainable.

[bass4daddy]

That's the second time I've read a post referencing that book. I must get a copy. The first post quoted the luthier saying "Stratovarius was into new instruments" or something along those lines. What I took to mean as the craft getting better as new techniques get intergrated with the old. Just my $.02.