Plywood tops made to look like solid tops? W. Eberle

[longfinger]

Hey,

So I'm going to various local stores to try out different basses and educate myself about what they are supposed to sound and play like. I'm shopping for my first upright acoustic bass (I've have and play an UEB, and fretted and fretless BG, an electric guitar and a nylon string guitar).

I went to a local big guitar+bass store, the kind that focusses on electric instruments and amps, pedals etc. The have a string section too.

The bass they are selling is labelled a William Eberle, made in Germany year 2008, Model 401 3/4. ($2400 CAN + taxes about $1950USD) On the phone, the guy told me it was a hybrid, with a carved top. I went to the store and recognized that this bass is the same model my friend bought two years ago from the same store (a 2006 model). (I did not note if the name was William Eberle or Wilhem Eberle). He was told at the time it was not a plywood top.
These basses are new, so they must be a resurrected model line from the Eberle basses that were discussed on Talkbass 4 years ago.

Anyways, I thought I saw that it was a plywood top. A really good ply top, as it had the following appearances.
- made in "leaf" construction with two opposing halves
- wood grain visible running along the top bass and the first ply.

What it did not have was the wood grain lines curving around the full thickness of the top. Under bright lights, I could see ply layers around the length of the top that resembled the ply layers on the back. 3 plys, with the top ply looking like a solid wood top. The F hole sides were painted black, likely to conceal the plys. I could still feel and see what I thought were 3 layers of material underneath the black paint.

The sales guy insisted that it was a solid top and did not want to argue it, nor examine the top further. He said he builds violins (not basses) and he knows.
I left it at that. I was just testing the bass, not buying it. (It seems to be a really good ply bass, but it was not even setup well. Cheap strings, buzzing on the G string from F to A, then no buzz higher up. No bridge adjusters, a must in Montreal climate) Probably would need an extra $400 to make it fun to play. Maybe more... I don't know.

I do not have photos of the shop bass... My questions:

Do builders sometimes make ply basses look like carved tops by using a really nice, but thin, solid top for the first ply? Then going further to use the "leaf" construction for the top?

Does anyone know much about the new William Eberle model 401 basses made in 2006 and 2008. I have not found much on the web.

Does it also happen that store staff from 'big box' electric guitar shops don't really know the details of acoustic basses? :-) (Ok, that's a yes.. but still...)

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by longfinger

Does it also happen that store staff from 'big box' electric guitar shops don't really know the details of acoustic basses? :-) (Ok, that's a yes.. but still...)

Ok, "know-it-all" clients who really know nothing is also an equally common problem. Maybe this buy was right, but the ply's were visible along the side of the top. Store guy said it might be an illusion based on how it was painted...

To be straight up, I can't really tell a ply, from a carved top by sound alone. Especially on a new bass that has not yet been optimized for good sound.

[tomshepp]

Most folks around here will say to stay away from "Guitar stores". Go to as many "Bass shops" as you can and educate yourself that way. Any reputable shop will be helpful and can answer all questions. They can certainly explain why a top is either carved or laminate, without giving you a "because I said so" attitude. Having a DB friend or teacher with you is also a good idea.

[Matthew Tucker]

Yes there are definitely some "ply" basses where the outer veneer is cut to mimic solid wood. Sometimes this is done for decorative effect such as figured maple on the top, and sometimes is done with a spruce to fool the casual observer.

[dchan]

I find that carved tops on basses nowadays tend to have a elevated 'lip' around the edges. That is, outside of the purfling on the top, the edges tend to curl upwards, and are higher than the rest of the top. As far as I know, this is something that can be done on carved tops, but not plywood tops. Either way, I think it's more of a decorative/aesthetic effect than anything.

[drurb]

longfinger, your story is a perfect example of why one should not shop for or buy a double bass from a guitar store or mass-market music retailer. Those are no places "to try out different basses and educate [oneself] about what they are supposed to sound and play like." Buy a bass from a bone fide bass shop.

From your description, the top you saw was plywood. By the way, the inner edges of the f-holes are often stained black on carved basses as well for aesthetics.

[longfinger]

Yeah, I agree that a bass luthier is the best place to go. However, to appreciate a good store, I think it's important to experience a bad store. It only took me 30 minutes of my time, and now I know what to avoid.

Same goes for an instrument. I think I'll better be able to appreciate a fine bass for me when I play it, after playing many mediocre basses and many great basses I can't afford.
That Eberle bass seemed like a fine ply bass, but that store could do a much better job of displaying it. I would not buy a DB bass from that store.

[wineaux]

I made the guitar-store mistake before I started reading here and elsewhere, but I got a bit lucky by using my ears. It is, by the way, a great guitar store and I still shop there for non-bass stuff. When I went in, they had a cheap Chinese bass for about $700 and a Romanian ply for about $1200. The Romanian bass sounded and felt a lot better, even to my uneducated ears, so that's what followed me home. But at my first lesson I learned the bridge was on UPSIDE DOWN! Another $350 later, I had an adjustable bridge, a dressed fingerboard and new strings. It was an OK first bass and I got most of my money back when I sold it, but for just a bit more -- I know now -- I could have had an entry-level Upton that would have been a much better bass.

I still don't own an Upton, and if I do it will be the hybrid or carved model, but I have three basses that I love. And the guy I sold my first bass to (a top-flight banjo player who has made it his life's work to learn to play every bluegrass instrument) is happy with his. So it all worked out in the end, but it might have worked out even better if I knew what I was doing!

[Tejano Bass]

Wineaux, Bless you my son for you have sinned - but - not soo badly as you have learned from your mistakes . . .

Confession is indeed good for the soul of a Bassist . . . just say three Hail Mandos, four Our Dobros and several Damn the Banjos! Now, go & practice, practice, practice . . .

btw, you might not want to stand too close to me in the event of Lightning!

[wineaux]

Forgot to mention, I recovered from my mistake by buying a fine Kay from Tejano!!!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by longfinger

However, to appreciate a good store, I think it's important to experience a bad store.

Well, uh, I don't quite buy that one.