Positioning Numbering

[SmashbrothaX]

Hello everyone,

I want to teach my student position numbering, but I don't know which is most popular (in other words, the one that is commonly found in orchestra music). In the Vance books, the position at the base of the neck (with first finger playing D on the G string) is called 3rd position, but I've always known that to be 4th position. Simandl refers to that as 6th position. Which is the most popular?

Thank you!

[Andrew McGregor]

Well, since you never, ever see position numbers in printed music, it doesn't matter.

Fingering, if it's present, is always done as Roman numerals I II III or IV representing the string and arabic numbers 1 through 4 and + for thumb representing the fingers.

That's how it should be notated on a part if you're writing it in, too... although that's bad form, at least if everyone uses the same fingering notation you won't confuse your desk partner (it's bad form to write it in though, because your desk partner may well want to use different fingering).

The concept of a 'position' comes from violin technique, but the bass doesn't really have anything quite like it... a violinist can almost play two octave scales in one position, in any key, whereas we have to pivot for any keys that don't use open strings.

[Dave Whitla]

Although I would agree with Andrew that you would not write positions into parts in a professional orchestra situation, it can certainly be useful to students to use names for the positions to help them know how far up the neck to shift their hand.

In my experience, there are two main numbering systems for positions (George Vance's may be a third). The first is Simandl, where 1st position has your first finger on A on the G string, Bb for 2nd position, C for third, D for 4th (it seems to be numbered according to the diatonic notes of the fourth finger up the G string). OP, you say that Simandl calls this position (1st finger on D) 6th, but not in my book. I don't think there's a conflict between what you think and what Simandl says.

The second system I'm aware of, but don't use, simply changes number each semitone, so half position would be called 1st degree, 1st position called 2nd degree, etc. By this system, 1st finger on D on the G string would be referred to as 7th degree.

Has that muddied the waters enough??

[PRUNEFACE]

Originally Posted by Dave Whitla

Although I would agree with Andrew that you would not write positions into parts in a professional orchestra situation, it can certainly be useful to students to use names for the positions to help them know how far up the neck to shift their hand.

In my experience, there are two main numbering systems for positions (George Vance's may be a third). The first is Simandl, where 1st position has your first finger on A on the G string, Bb for 2nd position, C for third, D for 4th (it seems to be numbered according to the diatonic notes of the fourth finger up the G string). OP, you say that Simandl calls this position (1st finger on D) 6th, but not in my book. I don't think there's a conflict between what you think and what Simandl says.

The second system I'm aware of, but don't use, simply changes number each semitone, so half position would be called 1st degree, 1st position called 2nd degree, etc. By this system, 1st finger on D on the G string would be referred to as 7th degree.

Has that muddied the waters enough??

Jsut like bass guitar

[billyfalconer]

Originally Posted by SmashbrothaX

In the Vance books, the position at the base of the neck (with first finger playing D on the G string) is called 3rd position

I believe the Vance books are based on Rabbath's technique.

I'm wondering why, if you're taking on students, you don't know what technique you want to teach?

[SmashbrothaX]

Originally Posted by billyfalconer

I believe the Vance books are based on Rabbath's technique.

I'm wondering why, if you're taking on students, you don't know what technique you want to teach?

That would be because I am VERY new to being a bass teacher (I've only had 2 students), and so I'm still not sure what direction I want to go when teaching my students. I chose the Vance books because those are what my teacher used, but now that I'm actually teaching, I'm beginning to wonder if his books are the best to use.

The reason why I was asking about position numbering is because, in my Vance books, by teacher would cross out "3rd position" and write "4th position." I just want to make I teach my students that most popular position numbering.

Could anyone suggest a good resource for new bass teachers?