Quality Chinese Basses

[Marial]

Originally Posted by Bijoux

I'd like to start by saying I own a unlabelled bass that is probably Chinese. It is a very good instrument and my Luthier thought it could easily sell anywhere between $4500 to $6000.
If that instrument was made in the US it would probably cost a lot more.
The point I would like to make is that cost doesn't go away. Does not disappear.
What I mean by that is if we can pay $600 for a bass somewhere along the chain someone else is picking up the cost. even a poorly made Palatino cost more than that.
If Americans get paid a lot more than Chinese works per hour. It would be easy to assume the Chinese workers are picking up the tab. Although is not that easy to pin point exactly what happens to the real cost because there are other factors along the chain as well. For instance is very likely that wood is being over harvested. To some that might not even appear as a problem now but most likely in the future it will. Especially when we find out that most goods we've created are sitting in landfills. so right here Nature pays the cost at the beginning and at the end of the process.
The most disappointing fact about Palatinos and Cremonas in my opinion, is that they are toys!
I don't personally know anyone that owns a Palatino type of bass. Not one of my students, private or at school. Not any of the guys gigging around town.
I only seem to see these basses in the classified section of Craigslist. Usually sitting in a garage or basement, badly in need of a set up.
It bothers me that these type of instruments don't get played.Most of them will have a very short life span.
I strongly disagree with the notion that we can only afford what we can afford.
To me that sounds like a justification.
If there is anywhere in the World where people can have what they want is in the US. And instead of having a bass now, a person can certainly save money for even a couple of years and buy something decent.
We vote with our dollars.

I have a Palatino, purchased for $850 in Portland, and, in point of fact, it actually was all I could afford. I think I got a deal with it at that price, as does my teacher, who was surprised by its tone. Maybe I got really lucky and got a good one, I don't know, but man, Palatino's sure get no love. It will get me through until I can afford an Upton, however. And lest anyone be confused, I'm NOT saying it's an excellent bass. It is not, however, a complete POS either. Saving for a couple of years wasn't an option for me. That's a couple of years NOT learning how to play upright.

[joel3000]

I'm thinking of moving on a used Kohr 61G. I've read one positive review in this thread of Kohr. These retail for about $1400 new.

Any other comments on them? Apparently they are Christopher's that are set up by a different shop.

[nicechuckh]

Good for you Marial, I wasn't gonna wait any more and got what I could when I could and very glad I did.

[JazznFunk]

I played on a fully laminated Kohr years ago when shopping for basses and it sounded very good. Not as responsive as the one I ended up with, but a very good sounding bass for the money. I ultimately got the carved-top K64 that I mentioned in an earlier thread. Bob Beerman's shop here in NC stocks a good number of Shen and Kohr basses and if he sells them, I trust them. They might not have as 'complex' a tone as the carved-top basses, but I certainly would trust the construction and longevity, particularly if it's gone over by a luthier before purchase.

[Johnboch]

Idk, man, but I've played some Christophers and some of the "new" Shens, and they're really impressive. +1 for Chinese basses. What's the point in shelling out anywhere from 1,000-15,000 more for something that comes from Europe when these basses are just as good if not better.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Johnboch

What's the point in shelling out anywhere from 1,000-15,000 more for something that comes from Europe when these basses are just as good if not better.

$1000-$15000?! ...because the ones you pay that much more for are typically substantially better. Of course, you have to do your shopping wisely.

[koipond]

Bump!

I'm planning to start db lessons at a local community college in the fall and will be in Shanghai for a music trade show in October. Any other good Chinese makers out there?

[Mike Carr]

I don't have much to say about the other makers in China except that most of them I tried while in China are not as good as Sam Shen's basses are. I'm sure he will have a large booth there at the show. He speaks English. His basses are great! They cost a lot less in China than they do in America. Your problem will be finding a way to take it back to your home country. If you speak Chinese or can go with someone that does you could speak directly to one of the many manufactures of flight cases at the show. Some of the cases are not very expensive, you can find them for less than $500 US. But then be ready to pay a lot of excess and over-sized baggage for the flight home. Then you need to worry about the bass getting wrecked in transit! Then, you must pay to get it set-up in LA, because the set-up that Sam provided is, just so-so. No adjusters will be on any bass he might have available for sale either at the show or that are sold at his shop in Shanghai on Jinling Lu. He can install them, but you might have to wait a week or two because Sam and his whole crew will be busy with the show. You will want the fingerboard planed,the nut slots cut lower, some adjusters installed, maybe even a new bridge. The sound-post adjusted and such. I was in Shanghai all of last year so I had to make several trips to Sam's shop to try to get my last bass set-up the way I like it. They do the best they know how to but their best efforts set-up wise in no way compares to the work that the luthiers in LA can do for a bass. If you play jazz you will want to buy some Spirocores or at least something can can give you a bit of growl. Sam's basses in China come with DiAdarrios, the classical style Heliocores, very dead for pizz playing. Now after all that, you will find that if you stick with a hybrid bass or plywood bass, which is about right for someone just starting you will have spent about the same amount of bread to buy the bass in China, buy the flight case, the right strings, the excess/overweight flight charges and to get the right luthier do the required set-up work that I know for a fact that you will want as if you go to the very same luthier in LA and buy a bass that's set-up perfectly and good to go! I know from what I speak. I bought three basses from Sam while in China. They were my "working" basses while playing several very long term gigs in Shanghai, Hangzhou and Hong Kong. I played them hard, then took them out of China and sold them. Two Willows and a Hybrid. I didn't buy them for intent to resale for any sort of great profit, just to play while gigging in that part of the world. Sam sells basses to visiting pros and students too I suppose. FWIW, I never made a killing on the basses I brought back, but I did not lose any money after paying all the costs to get them home. Where one might possibly be money ahead if you want to go through all the hassle of buying one there and getting it home is if you were to buy one of his high-end basses, a Roggeri or Panarmo. But that's way more bass than you are probably ready for if you are taking lessons at the local JC. Go see Lisa Gass, Jon Peterson or Gary Stein. They are in LA and will sell you a nice Chinese ply or hybrid that's all set-up and good to go. WARNING, any Chinese flight case that would make sense for you to buy there and still kind of break even after going through all of this is only going to be good for the trip home. When you pick-up your bass after the long flight expect to see broken handles and wheels or maybe worse! Remove the strings and bridge and drop the sound post before you fly with one of these cases, just to be on the safe side!

[Mike Carr]

I know this is all about Chinese basses. And it' no secret than I'm a big Shen fan. I took the time to re-read all the old posts in this thread. I can assure you, no slave labor in Shen's factory. I've been there. Sam treats his workers well and pays them a very fair wage for the type of work they do, by Chinese standards. Shen's business is string instrument making, not really set-up and bass repair, so hence the challenge I faced getting my last Willow to play right to the standard I had grown accustomed to and feel at this point in my career that I deserve. The first Willow I bought I played in Shanghai for six months back in 2005, then brought it back to LA. Both Lisa and Jon had done work on it and by golly, it sure played easy and sounded great! It stayed in LA a few years as the "home base" bass but when "home bass" for me became Hong Kong in 2008 I brought it here with me. The extreme humidity here really messed-up my set up. I was into using a super-low Brian Bromberg type of string height with an almost flat fingerboard scoop at the time but all the water from the air that the bass sucked up here in Hong Kong made a set-up like that impossible to maintain, it got crazy buzzes in the lower positions that required more fingerboard work. Some guys worked on it here but their best doesn't come close to what Jon or Lisa can do. So after getting it playable again with more scoop but now a very thin board I opted to sell it to a recording studio here. at least there the bass is in good climate control.
In the interest of having a bass that's got a set-up that works in this enviorment this time around I decided not to go Chinese for a while. I picked up a new David Gage Czech-Ease on my last trip back home, mostly because I knew that it's set-up would be killin' and it would not be difficult, either on the plane ride with it's great little flight case or for getting around town to gigs here. Plywood because it's wet here all the time and Gage's take on "normal" scoop for the fingerboard. At least I know that it's set-up is working fine for me here and should hold for a while. And it does sound quite good! But I will get another Chinese bass at one point and it will most likely be another Shen!

[koipond]

Mike,

Thanks for all the detailed information. I'm at the stage where I'm trying to gather all the information and listen to as many basses as I can right now. Once I register for the class and have an opportunity to talk to the instructor, and possibly play a rental bass for a few months; my currently very out-of-focus ideas about what I should get for a first (and most likely last) db will get sharper. At this point in time, any bass is too much bass for me , but I do want to get a bass that I can grow into, and not something I'll outgrow in a year or two. It's just a matter of how much bass I should get and can afford.

I plan to do lots of "window shopping" while in Shanghai; and maybe I'll be able to buy one there and ship back. I just have to work on logistics and play with numbers for a while to see if it will be feasible.

No matter where I get the bass, I plan to get a local LA luthier to set it up. I want to make sure the bass is playable so I enjoy picking it up instead of dreading practicing.

Once again, thanks Mike. Now back to scouring the db forums...

[LouisF]

Mike,

Do you (or any of the other posters) know about these guys:

Wujiang Meisheng Violin Co., Ltd.

Exquisite Professional Gamba Double Bass - Detailed info for Exquisite Professional Gamba Double Bass,double bass,Exquisite Professional Gamba Double Bass,MS-VB1 on Alibaba.com

There products are sold as "Neolson" basses.

Thanks

Louis

[Mike Carr]

Louis,

I saw those at the show last year but I didn't get a chance to play or hear them. They certainly seemed to at least look much nicer than many of the basses offered there. FWIW, their booth was also much larger than many and was presented in a very classy manner. I did not get the feeling that they were CCB's just based on my first visual impression. I should have taken the time to check them out, but I had other places to be that day. Concord had a booth there of course featuring their Christophers, I played one for a few minutes, it seemed well made and sounded like a decent ply, but had real high strings. I was interested because it was wearing a Gage Soundclip. Concord is distributing some of the Realist stuff in China now I guess. They had some Realists for sale in their booth. I made a deal to buy the demo SoundClip, the day before the show ended. I didn't have enough cash on me to buy it that moment and did not have my ATM card on me but the Concord guy from Beijing agreed to hold it for me until the next day, when I promised to return, pay for and pick it up. He clearly marked the box with my name on it. So the next day when I came back to their booth with cash in hand they didn't honour their original price quote on the demo model, They changed the whole deal saying that they were mistaken about the price and wanted a lot more money for it. It was not a language issue. The person in their booth spoke English well enough and I even got my Chinese wife on the phone at one point to help me try to save the deal and clear up any misunderstandings. But they refused to stick to the terms and price that they originaly quoted and that both they and I had agreed to the previous day. The only reason I had to return to the show that day was to buy the Gage Soundclip. The show is crowded and is held in a place that's a long cab ride from where I was staying in Shanghai, it was a lot of time spent on my end to go back there a second time. So much for "your word is your bond". So I walked! So that's about all I have to say about The Concord Group and the people that were representing and presenting their products in China.

[LouisF]

Thanks, Mike. Just to be clear, Concord and Neolson are not connected, right? Sorry about your adventure. There's a small luthier here who is interested in importing one or two of the higher grade Neolson basses a year and had asked me about them. I had to confess I knew nothing.

Thanks

Louis

[Mike Carr]

They are not connected.

[LouisF]

Thanks!

[Mike Carr]

Not connected. I needed to run on a bit about Concord, since thinking about the trade show brought it all back for me..sorry. I don't intend to de-rail the thread.

[Mike Carr]

BTW Louis, sorry I didn't get time to call you when I last was in LA. The Shen I brought with me was bought by a BIT student the day after I arrived. I got real busy with family stuff right after the whole time I was there so I didn't get out much. Time passes quickly seeing and dealing with a grown son and very elderly parents.

[LouisF]

Not a problem. Thanks

Louis

[Dimmik]

My workhorse bass is an Eastman VB-95. I got it for way cheaper than list price because the shop that sold it was selling it as a VB-80. I shined my mag lite in the f-hole and read the label and it said VB-95 and it's defintely a solid top (and pretty good quality I might add). That's why I bought it. Not passing up a deal like that.

Eastmans are iffy to me. This one is really nice except the adjuster wheels on the bridge did not turn a wit. But it was well put together and the coloring didn't come off the fingerboard and stain your fingers black like a lot of Eastmans.

I had a luthier friend of mine come over and fix the bridge. He thinks it was green wood that shrank. He took it apart and re-tapped it with a 1/4-20 and lubed it up with bar soap. Now the wheels turn with ease. He also noticed the soundpost was not properly located and used that soundpost tool to bump it into the right spot behind the treble foot of the bridge. I raised the strings where I wanted them, tuned it up and started playing and I couldn't believe the difference in the sound. It sounds like a pro bass now. I'm shocked and delighted.

I check the bass constantly for cracks and what not but it has been totally solid for nearly two years now. I put hybrid strings on it and an Underwood pickup and--man oh man--I take this thing with me everywhere. It's a workhorse.

The thing about these kinds of basses is that you need a luthier or know how to do the work yourself. Putting it in a shop and leaving it there until they find someone to work on it is not the way to go. I got two crucial readjustments on mine done in no more than 20 minutes and I gave him $40 for his troubles which he was very happy with. That's the way to go. Later, I will have this guy build me a new bass but I will still keep this one in case one has to go to a shop I'll still have something to play.

[double-the-bass]

Has anyone privately bought a quality bass while on holiday in China and imported it, especially to England? Advice on costs of shipping, insurance and taxes needed. Is it worth the effort?